Evening all,

Firstly, what, if any, effect has the charge had on safety? Are there
fewer road casualties in central London now? More? Have they been
displaced? Anyone know of any data?

Secondly, why is it being extended westward? Why not to the north, where i
live, so i can ride to work more easily? Is the west more congested, or
more in need of better bus services? Or does Ken just like people in the
west more? Or particularly hate western drivers?

tom

--
The sky above the port was the colour of television, tuned to a dead
channel

Tom Anderson wrote:
Secondly, why is it being extended westward? Why not to the north, where
i live, so i can ride to work more easily? Is the west more congested,
or more in need of better bus services? Or does Ken just like people in
the west more? Or particularly hate western drivers?

Would it not be great if it was extended to cover all of Britain, then
only drivers of foreign vehicles would have to pay.

Tom Anderson wrote:
Evening all,

Firstly, what, if any, effect has the charge had on safety? Are there
fewer road casualties in central London now? More? Have they been
displaced? Anyone know of any data?

Secondly, why is it being extended westward? Why not to the north, where i
live, so i can ride to work more easily? Is the west more congested, or
more in need of better bus services? Or does Ken just like people in the
west more? Or particularly hate western drivers?

It does make some sense for an extension Westbound to cover the whole
of Travelcard Zone 1 and at least the whole of the Circle Line. Pushing
the boundary all the way to Harlesden (near Willesden Junction station)
seems a bit extreme (unless they've changed the boundary). And does
this all mean that Harrow Road and Scrubs Lane will become primary
because neither of them are now.

If I were to extend I would have make Sussex Gardens and then Bayswater
Road up to Holland Park, possibly Kensington Church Street although the
capacity on there is bad enough without making it a boundary road so
maybe just follow the A402 to the big roundabout just East of Shepherds
Bush Green.

Hyde Park itself I would not have inside the zone.

If it were to be extended North the only conceivable border I can see
is A400 to Camden, A503 Camden Road, A1 Holloway Road and possibly
A1200.

The problem is that those who live just outside the boundary will not
be able to drive to facilities just inside without paying the charge.
And therefore those business just inside that rely on customers who
drive (and some goods are too heavy to shop without a car) will lose
business.

For example, I live just outside of the North Circular and if they ever
decided to make that road a charging boundary zone, we would have to
pay the charge if ever we wanted to shop just inside during the
charging hours.

In article .com, Earl
Purple writes

And therefore those business just inside that rely on customers who
drive (and some goods are too heavy to shop without a car) will lose
business.

For example, I live just outside of the North Circular and if they ever
decided to make that road a charging boundary zone, we would have to
pay the charge if ever we wanted to shop just inside during the
charging hours.

If you're talking about furniture and appliance stores and the like
around that way, of which there are many, I'm sure they could arrange
some kind of delivery service. IKEA already does.

--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

Tom Anderson wrote:
Evening all,

Firstly, what, if any, effect has the charge had on safety? Are there
fewer road casualties in central London now? More? Have they been
displaced? Anyone know of any data?

Motorcycle and bicycle casualties are down while numbers are up.

It's not obvious whether it's the increased numbers (making them more
visible and noticed) or the reduced number of cars that has caused
this.

Tim.

On 3 Oct 2006 08:26:38 -0700, "Earl Purple"
wrote:

It does make some sense for an extension Westbound to cover the whole
of Travelcard Zone 1 and at least the whole of the Circle Line. Pushing
the boundary all the way to Harlesden (near Willesden Junction station)
seems a bit extreme (unless they've changed the boundary). And does
this all mean that Harrow Road and Scrubs Lane will become primary
because neither of them are now.

The extension will include zone 2 so your fears of an extension too
far are well grounded. The west boundary does line up with restricted
access (Harrow Road to Ladbroke Gr, Wood Lane onto North Pole Road) so
making it easy to monitor with few "5-eyed monsters". A proposed
boundary near LadbrokeGr tube station would have been more difficult.

Wood/Scrubs Lane to Harrow Road are hell at the moment in the morning
peak and will remain uncharged; the purpose here just cannot be
"congestion" but Ken has fessed to it being a wallet grab. His evil
brain has postulated widening to the Circulars...

The problem is that those who live just outside the boundary will not
be able to drive to facilities just inside without paying the charge.
And therefore those business just inside that rely on customers who
drive (and some goods are too heavy to shop without a car) will lose
business.

Oh don't worry, your local shops will be wiped out but you'll have
uncharged access to BrentX and the "Westfield" aka White City complex.
So that's all right then. And Oxford Street can decline to cater for
tourists, tram or no tram.
--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

Colum Mylod wrote:
The extension will include zone 2 so your fears of an extension too
far are well grounded. The west boundary does line up with restricted
access (Harrow Road to Ladbroke Gr, Wood Lane onto North Pole Road) so
making it easy to monitor with few "5-eyed monsters". A proposed
boundary near LadbrokeGr tube station would have been more difficult.

Does the route then follow Barlby Road (not even a classified road) or
does it head along the B412 (St Quintin Avenue, St Marks Road and
Cambridge Gardens) up to Ladbroke Grove. Most of these are fairly
narrow residential streets.

Wood/Scrubs Lane to Harrow Road are hell at the moment in the morning
peak and will remain uncharged; the purpose here just cannot be
"congestion" but Ken has fessed to it being a wallet grab. His evil
brain has postulated widening to the Circulars...

The thing is that I think many people in London don't object to the
congestion charge in the centre so much because there is fairly good
public transport to the centre - after all the underground lines do all
go to the centre of London.

The only sensible way to cure the congestion problem is better pooling
schemes. I would also like to see another orbital rail route connecting
all the lines in the outer zones. I'm sure such a line would be well
used.

Oh don't worry, your local shops will be wiped out but you'll have
uncharged access to BrentX and the "Westfield" aka White City complex.
So that's all right then. And Oxford Street can decline to cater for
tourists, tram or no tram.

Well it's fine, they can just make every road in London private flats
and have no facilities. More and more facilities are being replaced
with private flats anyway. Hardly surprising then that to access
facilities you can no longer find any in walking distance and have to
get into your car...

On 4 Oct 2006 07:04:01 -0700, "Earl Purple"
wrote:

Does the route then follow Barlby Road (not even a classified road) or
does it head along the B412 (St Quintin Avenue, St Marks Road and
Cambridge Gardens) up to Ladbroke Grove. Most of these are fairly
narrow residential streets.
The boundary will be formed by the railway line that crosses over
North Pole Road so Barlby Road etc will be inside and chargeable (but
the cameras are at NPole Rd and at the top of Ladbroke Grove where the
roundabout leads to Sainsbury's, allowing free access to the big
shop). Oddly the camera before that rbt seems to cover entrance but
not exit. The side streets bordering Wood Lane will be uncharged but
residents there will have access to the 90% discount.

In that neck of the woods almost all of K&C is inside except the bits
to the south of the Harrow Road towards Sainsbos. My guess is that the
few pinch points were chosen as the edge with Sainos arguing
successfully for exemption. The xM41 and Westway will not be covered,
which could be interesting if the new shopping centre gains a few new
roads into K&C territory.

The thing is that I think many people in London don't object to the
congestion charge in the centre so much because there is fairly good
public transport to the centre - after all the underground lines do all
go to the centre of London.
Also that zone has few residents, the initial CC affected few ordinary
bods. The extended one will scalp more peeps. The buses are better for
the investment they've received.

The only sensible way to cure the congestion problem is better pooling
schemes. I would also like to see another orbital rail route connecting
all the lines in the outer zones. I'm sure such a line would be well
used.
I'd like to mention the system I saw in Madrid: bodies on the ground
enforcing local access only for locals and limited deliveries - but
there's no profit in that scheme is there? The CC is about money:
Capita fill their boots and some sloshes to Ken. It is not a user
friendly setup either: no lights to say the zone is active, no easy
way to pay automatically after the event, in fact it appears to be
designed to make money from non-payment. And an open charter for plate
cloning or plain reregistering of the car in Poland or Latvia.

Well it's fine, they can just make every road in London private flats
and have no facilities. More and more facilities are being replaced
with private flats anyway. Hardly surprising then that to access
facilities you can no longer find any in walking distance and have to
get into your car...
London is quite poor for local walkable facilities. I've lived in
places with far more on the ground locally (and much safer bike lanes
than mere blobs of paint) but London is focused on cars + shopping
areas.
--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

In message . com, Earl
Purple writes
I would also like to see another orbital rail route connecting
all the lines in the outer zones. I'm sure such a line would be well
used.
I certainly is in Moscow.
--
Clive.

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Colum Mylod wrote:

On 3 Oct 2006 08:26:38 -0700, "Earl Purple"
wrote:

The problem is that those who live just outside the boundary will not
be able to drive to facilities just inside without paying the charge.
And therefore those business just inside that rely on customers who
drive (and some goods are too heavy to shop without a car) will lose
business.

Oh don't worry, your local shops will be wiped out but you'll have
uncharged access to BrentX and the "Westfield" aka White City complex.
So that's all right then. And Oxford Street can decline to cater for
tourists, tram or no tram.

So Colum, how many people get to Oxford Street by car, then?

tom

--
wit, speed, and dressing well