On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:51:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Currently to apply a student has to first enrol for the year, then get hold
of a discount form, fill it out & add a photo, get it stamped and signed by
an authority in the university, then send it off to Hull and wait two weeks
for either the card to arrive or a rejection letter.

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

It's quite easy to get the form wrong and not realise this until the
rejection comes, whilst the annual expirary at the end of September causes a
mass rush of renewals at the start of the term, as everyone tries to get
their new card before the old one expires.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets

Agreed this does seem strange as there are discounted Oyster PAYG
rates for 16-17 and Child Oyster photocards. At least you now entitled
to Travelcards and not 'LT Cards' in the first few years of the scheme
which was a major limitation (not valid on National Rail).

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already.

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.


Nicholas wrote:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:51:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Currently to apply a student has to first enrol for the year, then get hold
of a discount form, fill it out & add a photo, get it stamped and signed by
an authority in the university, then send it off to Hull and wait two weeks
for either the card to arrive or a rejection letter.

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

It's quite easy to get the form wrong and not realise this until the
rejection comes, whilst the annual expirary at the end of September causes a
mass rush of renewals at the start of the term, as everyone tries to get
their new card before the old one expires.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets

Agreed this does seem strange as there are discounted Oyster PAYG
rates for 16-17 and Child Oyster photocards. At least you now entitled
to Travelcards and not 'LT Cards' in the first few years of the scheme
which was a major limitation (not valid on National Rail).

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already.

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

SamB wrote:

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

There was some confusion at QMUL this year over whether we'd have online
applications or not - in the end it was done by stamp and post.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.

Agree - when they were still using separate photocards it was possible to
keep the Oyster and the money on it. Now I have two old Oysters with PAYG
money loaded onto them and my travelcard on a different Oyster. They don't
seem able to transfer the money over.

SamB wrote:

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.


Only some institutions are participating in online Student Oystercard
applications, but I'm sure the number will go up. You have to send them
a digital photo - is that one supplied by your uni, say the same one
they use on your uni student card - or can you provide one of your own?

There's some more information on this scheme he
General introduction -
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06/general.asp
FAQs - https://photocard2.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gotoFaq.do

It does sound a bit wasteful that you can't renew your Student
Oystercard - but that said the system does need to remain as secure and
fraudproof as possible. There would be a massive queue of non-student
lining up to take advantage of any vulnerability and benefit from the
30% discount. The non-renewability probably counters the possibility of
such fraud.

Incidentally, I've never actually inspected a Student Oyster closely -
alongside the photo what else does it have printed on it - name, expiry
date, university attended?


(Tip regarding usenet convention - try and avoid "top-posting" and
instead put your comments underneath the quoted text of the post you're
replying to - it makes everything a bit easier.)

Mizter T wrote:

Only some institutions are participating in online Student Oystercard
applications, but I'm sure the number will go up. You have to send them
a digital photo - is that one supplied by your uni, say the same one
they use on your uni student card - or can you provide one of your own?

I suspect one would have to provide their own. At a lot of universities it's
the students' union who administer the verification (although I think TfL
are able to subsequently get the Registry to cross reference and confirm
students on the lists) and for many SUs it's easier to get blood out of a
stone than enrolment data from a Registry.

It does sound a bit wasteful that you can't renew your Student
Oystercard - but that said the system does need to remain as secure and
fraudproof as possible. There would be a massive queue of non-student
lining up to take advantage of any vulnerability and benefit from the
30% discount. The non-renewability probably counters the possibility of
such fraud.

I could accept this *if* they would still allow the transfer of balances
over. (Maybe they do - the last time I asked they refused.)

Incidentally, I've never actually inspected a Student Oyster closely -
alongside the photo what else does it have printed on it - name, expiry
date, university attended?

Mine just has my photo and name (with only the first initial), plus on the
back card numbers. The separate photo card from 2004-2005 has "valid from"
and "expires", as well as "College" although this only displays the
institution's TfL code.

Nicholas wrote:

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

By comparison the new NUS Extra card which was launched this year requires
an online application, with many students' unions setting up computers to
take the pictures, and then the card is delivered to the SU who must verify
the student's card there and then. As a result you can apply even before
re-enrolling for the year (if your student ID number is carried forward) and
also you walk away from applying knowing that it's all in order.

As far as I know ULU and UofL college SUs no longer issue the cards
themselves. Until 2004-2005 the card was a separate photocard but from
2005-2006 it's been a Oyster with a photo printed on it, which has the
discount switched off at the end of September and can be used as a standard
Oyster.

Ideally I'd like to see TfL at either enrolments (although most returning
QMUL undergrad and masters students enrol online) or Freshers' Fairs, where
the applications could be processed onsite, but at the very least something
like the NUS Extra set-up would work.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Yes - nice of them to remember that for many students the summer is a
crucial period. (I spent one summer travelling almost dfaily to Colindale to
research my MA dissertation.) Another sore point was the scheme was only
available to 18-24 year olds. So much for support for widening participation
and lifelong learning!

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already.

True - but a) the Underground ticket machines don't offer this (or even tell
you that you need to go to the very busy manned window); b) I suspect a lot
of ticket staff don't know this and c) I doubt many YPR holders know it
either. Away from this group I've never seen anything telling me this is
possible. (I would test it but I live in a NR area and the season ticket
means I haven't needed to buy a day travelcard in over two years.)

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

(snip)

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already.

True - but a) the Underground ticket machines don't offer this (or even tell
you that you need to go to the very busy manned window); b) I suspect a lot
of ticket staff don't know this and c) I doubt many YPR holders know it
either. Away from this group I've never seen anything telling me this is
possible. (I would test it but I live in a NR area and the season ticket
means I haven't needed to buy a day travelcard in over two years.)


There's a good reason why YPR holders don't know they can get the
discount from LU - it seems ATOC (who run the railcard schemes) don't
know either!

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

The same or similar wording appears in the terms and conditions
smallprint of the YPR leaflets!

It's for this reason that when I was a YPR holder I never even tried to
get a discounted Travelcard from a Tube ticket office. I really
could've saved some money - as I'm sure many others still could.

After all LU ticket offices may well be ignorant of this because no one
ever asks them for it - if lots of people did I'm sure they'd wise up
quite quickly.

-----
[1] http://www.youngpersons-railcard.co.uk/faq.htm

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

Usefully if and when you manage to get an LU ticket office to sell you
a YPR-discounted all-zones Day Travelcard they actually throw in zones
A-D as well for no extra cost, so that makes it better value to
actually buy said YPR-discounted Travelcard from an LU as opposed to a
National Rail (NR) ticket office! Of course most people wouldn't care
as they're not going out to the far reaches of the Metropolitan Line in
Buckinghamshire, but for those who are it's well worth knowing.

This has been mentioned several times before on this newsgroup by
several people so whilst I haven't done it myself I'm certain it is the
case. In particular see this June 2005 uk.railway thread via Google
Groups [1] (the FAQ numbering on the YPR website I refer to has
obviously been changed around since then).

Why this is the case is a different matter. I guess in part because
it's convenient administratively for LU to throw A-D in for free -
perhaps they've done it unilaterally as it has no impact on NR TOCs
(apart of course from Chiltern Railways given the interavailbility of
LU tickets on their services - though they have a specifically
intertwined relationship with LU, and they have presumable agreed to
it).

I also guess NR don't issue such YPR-discounted Travelcards as zones
A-D is LU territory, which is a shame. It's also possible to buy from
NR ticket offices a _non-discounted_ Day Travelcard that covers zones
A-D - see section L of the NR National Fares Manual (page L1 [2]) - but
seemingly you can only do this for the off-peak Fay Travelcard, not the
peak version.

(Whilst that section mentions Cheap-Day Returns to the Buckinghamshire
Met Line stations I'm sure that only applies to journeys coming from
the other way on the Chiltern Line - i.e. Aylesbury - allowing a change
from a Chiltern train onto a Met Line train if needed to complete the
journey.)


(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

If you're using Oyster PAYG (on either the Met or Chiltern) then you'd
need to touch out at Amersham, likewise coming back from Aylesbury
you'd need to touch in again (if you don't you're subject to a Penalty
Fare, the unresolved journey doesn't contribute to your daily cap and
from November you'll be charged £4 for unresolved journeys). At
Amersham there's gates in operation, at least some of the time, which
might well make jumping off and on the same train a bit of an
impossible mission!

You can of course buy a ticket at Marylebone (or from any NR ticket
office - notionally at least!) from either the boundary of zone 6, or
Amersham, to Aylesbury. The Harrow-on-the-Hill ticket office is run by
LU who might either not be able to do this or struggle to do it, I
don't know.

Not knowing how often you'll have to make the journey, at what time
you'll be setting off and where you're starting from it's hard to say
what you're best option is.

Remember that (in theory at least) you could buy a YPR-discounted Day
Travelcard from an LU ticket office (thus getting the free zones A-D)
in advance.

-----
[1] June 2005 uk.railway thread
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....c2cc172dc479cc
or via shortURL http://tinyurl.com/oposx

[2] National Fares Manual - Section L
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...4_Common_L.pdf

Mizter T wrote:

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension
from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return
ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in
then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from
Marylebone/Harrow?)

If you're using Oyster PAYG (on either the Met or Chiltern) then you'd
need to touch out at Amersham, likewise coming back from Aylesbury
you'd need to touch in again (if you don't you're subject to a Penalty
Fare, the unresolved journey doesn't contribute to your daily cap and
from November you'll be charged £4 for unresolved journeys). At
Amersham there's gates in operation, at least some of the time, which
might well make jumping off and on the same train a bit of an
impossible mission!

There are also readers on the London bound platform (at least - I've never
looked on the other two). I have managed to jump off touch in jump on for a
single train before but I agree it's messy.

Not knowing how often you'll have to make the journey, at what time
you'll be setting off and where you're starting from it's hard to say
what you're best option is.

Generally I travel during the day - anytime leaving Baker Street any time
from noon til three. It's a journey probably made on average every three
months.

Remember that (in theory at least) you could buy a YPR-discounted Day
Travelcard from an LU ticket office (thus getting the free zones A-D)
in advance.

Yup - but aside from all the hassle, I have a zones 1-6 season travelcard so
I'm looking at the extension option only.