From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

John Rowland wrote:

From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

You might have a point - that said, doing it this way creates
uniformity and clarity.

One thing that I was never sure about was whether it would be possible
to get on the Westway from Edgware Road without going into the zone -
thankfully I see this can be done by going via Praed Street -
Eastbourne Terrace - Bishops Bridge Road etc.

Mizter T wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western
extension will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the
inside of the cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street,
Redfield Lane, Lawrence Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this
hard to understand. How much does each camera cost? Since Childs
Street contains nothing but houses, all of whose residents will
qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will take the Childs
Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay for
itself.

You might have a point - that said, doing it this way creates
uniformity and clarity.

One thing that I was never sure about was whether it would be possible
to get on the Westway from Edgware Road without going into the zone -
thankfully I see this can be done by going via Praed Street -
Eastbourne Terrace - Bishops Bridge Road etc.

It is shorter via Harrow Road and Bishops Bridge.

I'm not sure why Eastbourne Terrace and Praed St are outside the zone.

John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western
extension will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the
inside of the cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street,
Redfield Lane, Lawrence Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this
hard to understand. How much does each camera cost? Since Childs
Street contains nothing but houses, all of whose residents will
qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will take the Childs
Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay for
itself.

You might have a point - that said, doing it this way creates
uniformity and clarity.

One thing that I was never sure about was whether it would be possible
to get on the Westway from Edgware Road without going into the zone -
thankfully I see this can be done by going via Praed Street -
Eastbourne Terrace - Bishops Bridge Road etc.

It is shorter via Harrow Road and Bishops Bridge.

I'm not sure why Eastbourne Terrace and Praed St are outside the zone.

Good point, hadn't thought of that (not used to the Bridge being open
again!). Possibly those streets are exempt to allow 'free' access to
Paddington station and St. Mary's hospital.

John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car parks ?
Wll they be fitted with cameras or just visited occasionally by a
warden ?

Jon

Jon wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car parks ?

If they're off the *inside* of the cordon, probably not.


--

Stephen

That is enigmatic. That - that is - that is textbook enigmatic.

Stephen Farrow wrote:

Jon wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car parks ?

If they're off the *inside* of the cordon, probably not.


Not sure exactly what you mean by that Stephen. The roads in question
are within the zone, but are cul-de-sacs where the only means of access
is from the boundary of the zone, not from anywhere within the zone -
i.e. by driving up one you'd hit a dead end, and wouldn't get any
further into the zone. John's point is whether it's worth including
these in the zone as the costs of enforcement (putting up statc camers)
would be too great.

Jon wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.

Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car parks ?

These roads will likely have (council enforced) residents only parking
restrictions in force during the weekday daytime, so they'd be pretty
useless for use as "zone-edge car parks".

However if they were excluded there could be problems with lots of
people driving down them trying to find a parking space, or driving
down them with some sort of "I've found a chink in the CC armour and
can get in/out the zone for free" logic. All these people would of
course have to turn round soon enough but they could be a substantial
irritant.

As I said in an earlier reply, it's far simpler and clearer to include
them in the zone.


Wll they be fitted with cameras or just visited occasionally by a
warden ?


A very good question that gets to the core of the OP's point. As John
says it could be argued that cameras at these locations are not worth
the money. Without having seen the internal plans I guess the answer to
that is to wait and see whether cameras are installed at these
locations in the coming months (if they're not already there).

Incidentally mobile CC enforcement isn't done by wardens but by vans
with cameras attached to the top of them. These vans are white and may
or may not have congestion charging logos and wording displayed signs
attached (AIUI they are just magnetic signs), presumably utilising a
bit of the "give them a bit of a scare" logic of the marked TV licence
'detector vans' that prowl the streets.

(I've read many, if not most 'detector vans' were/are fakes, though
there was at least one real van. It should be stated that as far as
anyone is aware the CC camera vans are not fake, though I remember an
Evening Standard reporter going undercover working in one who said that
the automatic number plate recognition on the vans computers didn't
work well at all - things may have changed, of course, and those
problems could be put down to initial glitches or poor operator
training.)

Such a van could park on one of these cul-de-sacs and monitor it
occasionally - remember that a car only has to pay the CC if it's
moving in the zone, so merely taking down the reg numbers of parked
cars in the zone is useless.

Mizter T wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:

Jon wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the western extension
will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and similar, off the inside of the
cordon, for instance Blantyre Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence
Street, Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How much
does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains nothing but houses, all
of whose residents will qualify for the exemption, I wonder how long it will
take the Childs Street camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay
for itself.
Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car parks ?
If they're off the *inside* of the cordon, probably not.


Not sure exactly what you mean by that Stephen.

If access to the cul-de-sacs in question is from inside the zone, which
the original message suggested it was ("off the inside of the cordon",
as opposed to, say, "cul-de-sacs/dead-end streets extending into the
congestion zone"), then the reason for installing cameras on those
streets would be unlikely to be to stop people from using the streets as
free edge-of-zone parking, since they'd have to drive into the zone to
get to those streets anyway.

--

Stephen

If I believed in fairy tales I never would have dropped out of kindergarten.

Stephen Farrow wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:

Jon wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
From the maps on the cclondon website, it looks like the
western extension will include a number of cul-de-sacs, and
similar, off the inside of the cordon, for instance Blantyre
Street, Childs Street, Redfield Lane, Lawrence Street,
Embankment Gardens etc. I find this hard to understand. How
much does each camera cost? Since Childs Street contains
nothing but houses, all of whose residents will qualify for the
exemption, I wonder how long it will take the Childs Street
camera to pay for itself, or whether it will ever pay for
itself.
Could it be to stop people using these roads as zone-edge car
parks ?
If they're off the *inside* of the cordon, probably not.


Not sure exactly what you mean by that Stephen.

If access to the cul-de-sacs in question is from inside the zone,
which the original message suggested it was ("off the inside of the
cordon", as opposed to, say, "cul-de-sacs/dead-end streets extending
into the congestion zone"), then the reason for installing cameras on
those streets would be unlikely to be to stop
people from using the streets as free edge-of-zone parking, since
they'd have to drive into the zone to get to those streets anyway.

You don't seem to realise that the "cordon" itself is outside the zone,
the boundary being on its inner edge. So the cul-de-sacs can only be
entered from outside the zone, but are themselves within it.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)