Paul Corfield wrote:
There is nothing I have read that says that travelcard holders
travelling within their zonal validity must touch in and out. The
obvious reason for this is that there is no requirement on such journeys
to activate a claim against the pre-pay purse on the card.

Hello fellow LUL man!

The two reasons I usually give my punters for making sure they always
touch in and out with a season ticket (apart from its easier than
vaulting over the gate...) is that if they don't, 1) they cannot claim
for any disruptions as there will be no record of their journey and 2)
over time if no-one touches in and out, there's no record of their
journeys and services may be trimmed as there are apparently less
people using the trains. Especially in Suburban areas.

I've read through all 40 posts (I've never seen such activity on an
internet thread I started!) and don't think this has been mentioned.
Additional to the £4.00 charge for incomplete journeys, Oyster cards
will now require either a valid season ticket, OR a minimum of £5
credit or they will not function. I believe this is a reaction to the
fact people would stick £1.00 on the card as minimum fare that would
open the gates, then worry about their negative balance later
(something that contradicts the Conditions of Carriage).

wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
There is nothing I have read that says that travelcard holders
travelling within their zonal validity must touch in and out. The
obvious reason for this is that there is no requirement on such journeys
to activate a claim against the pre-pay purse on the card.

Hello fellow LUL man!

The two reasons I usually give my punters for making sure they always
touch in and out with a season ticket (apart from its easier than
vaulting over the gate...) is that if they don't, 1) they cannot claim
for any disruptions as there will be no record of their journey and 2)
over time if no-one touches in and out, there's no record of their
journeys and services may be trimmed as there are apparently less
people using the trains. Especially in Suburban areas.


I absolutely understand that the message _always_ touch-in/out is
clearer than trying to differentiate between Oyster card holders using
PAYG and Travelcard seasons.

One issue I have with this though is the potential scrum at ungated
stations where all passengers with an Oyster card will want to
touch-in/out. When Oyster PAYG eventually rolls out to all National
Rail routes in London I can see this being a particular problem at some
stations during the rush hour, where there are only a couple of Oyster
readers that everyone wants to use. I guess the answer to this would be
to install more readers where there isn't enouhg capacity.


I've read through all 40 posts (I've never seen such activity on an
internet thread I started!) and don't think this has been mentioned.
Additional to the £4.00 charge for incomplete journeys, Oyster cards
will now require either a valid season ticket, OR a minimum of £5
credit or they will not function. I believe this is a reaction to the
fact people would stick £1.00 on the card as minimum fare that would
open the gates, then worry about their negative balance later
(something that contradicts the Conditions of Carriage).

First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum balance
on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly lacking in
proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move somewhat
unlikely.

Mizter T wrote:
First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum balance
on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly lacking in
proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move somewhat
unlikely.

Thats the information I was given today. If anything though it should
provide an improved service, where people don't turn up at a station
unable to top up, and unable to travel because there is no credit.
Which is one of the main benefits of Oyster anyway. Although of course
it won't be beneficial to all, which is a sad fact of any arrangement.

Your comments on NR stations and the limited number of Oyster readers
are quite valid too, and we can only hope the powers that be are
thinking ahead....

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:06:59 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:20:10 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

A bit of advance warning for those who haven't heard - from November,
if you use pre-pay Oyster, and you fail to touch in or out at any point
of your travels where you're supposed to do so, you will find yourself
being charged £4.00 for the incomplete journey.

All the signs up say this came in on October 10th.

consults briefing material

The date of introduction is Sunday 19th November 2006.

If you don't mind Paul, could you confirm whether ticket offices won't
be able to fix incomplete journeys any more? (The OP reported it as
something of a rumour.)

I can't see any advantage whatsoever in making such a change (except
perhaps small savings in ticket office staff training, or extra money
from people phoning the 0845 helpline). On the face of it, it would
seem almost deliberately obstructive, and certainly against the spirit
of customer service (which is normally very good).

I've had a look at the training material. It is very clear that where
there is a system problem (e.g. reader is not working, card problems or
there was an emergency evacuation or something else in LU's control)
that card resetting at the ticket office will be permitted. Where
someone is simply not validating because they can't be bothered / forgot
/ whatever (i.e. in their direct control) then that will NOT be dealt
with at the ticket office. Only a call to the Oyster helpline will
suffice.

The rules relating to charges and card resetting are also changing.

If you think about why the change is being made then there is a logic to
this approach. The whole point is to get people to play by the rules and
to do what they are supposed to do. If you make it too easy to get round
the rules how will people ever learn to play by the rules? If people
keep getting charged £4 and have to go to extra effort to deal with the
helpdesk perhaps they will think twice before doing it again. Where the
problem is LU's fault then the customer is dealt with straight away -
that sounds like a decent deal to me.

If I can summon up the mental stamina I might try to knock together a
summary post of the key points from this change. It is quite involved
and there are differences for Oyster card holders with Travelcards on
their cards and those purely on adult rate PAYG. Would this be
appreciated?

dons flak jacket and hides in corner

Note also that there is going to be a big publicity campaign about this
so more detail will be in the public domain shortly.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Mizter T wrote:
First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum balance
on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly lacking in
proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move somewhat
unlikely.

Again been sitting here bored and found some more info on this. The
current Fares and Tickets leaflet clearly states what changes are
coming and can be found here
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Specifically on pages 2 and 3 - "Failure to touch in and out correctly
will result in a penalty fare."

AND "when you touch in at the start of your journey a charge of up to
£5 will be deducted from your balance. When you touch out at the end
of your journey the charge will be adjusted so that you only pay the
correct Oyster single fare for your journey. If you fail to touch in
and touch out the charge will be applied to your card and the journey
will not count towards your daily cap." Hence the £5 minimum top up.

So does this mean that all the old North London Line stations are
Oystered now? Last time I transferred from the Victoria Line to the NLL
(or whatever it's called now) and got off at Camden Road, I couldn't
find one.

R

So does this mean that all the old North London Line stations are
Oystered now? Last time I transferred from the Victoria Line to the NLL
(or whatever it's called now) and got off at Camden Road, I couldn't
find one.

R

Paul Corfield wrote in
:


If I can summon up the mental stamina I might try to knock together a
summary post of the key points from this change. It is quite involved
and there are differences for Oyster card holders with Travelcards on
their cards and those purely on adult rate PAYG. Would this be
appreciated?


Yes. Very much so.

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:06:59 +0100, asdf
wrote:

If you don't mind Paul, could you confirm whether ticket offices won't
be able to fix incomplete journeys any more? (The OP reported it as
something of a rumour.)

I can't see any advantage whatsoever in making such a change (except
perhaps small savings in ticket office staff training, or extra money
from people phoning the 0845 helpline). On the face of it, it would
seem almost deliberately obstructive, and certainly against the spirit
of customer service (which is normally very good).

I've had a look at the training material. It is very clear that where
there is a system problem (e.g. reader is not working, card problems or
there was an emergency evacuation or something else in LU's control)
that card resetting at the ticket office will be permitted. Where
someone is simply not validating because they can't be bothered / forgot
/ whatever (i.e. in their direct control) then that will NOT be dealt
with at the ticket office. Only a call to the Oyster helpline will
suffice.

The rules relating to charges and card resetting are also changing.

If you think about why the change is being made then there is a logic to
this approach. The whole point is to get people to play by the rules and
to do what they are supposed to do. If you make it too easy to get round
the rules how will people ever learn to play by the rules? If people
keep getting charged £4 and have to go to extra effort to deal with the
helpdesk perhaps they will think twice before doing it again. Where the
problem is LU's fault then the customer is dealt with straight away -
that sounds like a decent deal to me.

I concur. This change will plug a hole in the Oyster system that was
open to abuse. The critical thing now is to make sure that all Oyster
readers and gatelines are operational at all times - if a gate is
broken it can just be closed so passengers can use another one, but if
a standalone Oyster reader is out of action it should clearly be signed
as such so passengers know to use another one, and it should be fixed
ASAP. That said I don't think I've ever seen a standalone Oyster reader
that was broken.


If I can summon up the mental stamina I might try to knock together a
summary post of the key points from this change. It is quite involved
and there are differences for Oyster card holders with Travelcards on
their cards and those purely on adult rate PAYG. Would this be
appreciated?

dons flak jacket and hides in corner

Yes, I for one would very much appreciate such a summary.


Note also that there is going to be a big publicity campaign about this
so more detail will be in the public domain shortly.

As you see elsewhere in this thread some posters displayed at stations
claim that it's already started! I hope that the publicity campaign is
comprehensive and emphasises that one has to touch-in and out at the
start and end of every journey.

I know perfectly well meaning people (definitely not fare evaders) who
having arrived at an unfamiliar and ungated station (such as Finsbury
Park) manage to walk obliviously past the Oyster readers and straight
out the exit onto the street, failing to touch-out in the process. In
the paper ticketing days gone by this is entirely normal behaviour, but
in the times of Oyster they need a kind of message that sticks in the
mind so they alter this ingrained behaviour.

"Mizter T" wrote in
ps.com:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:06:59 +0100, asdf
wrote:

If you don't mind Paul, could you confirm whether ticket offices
won't be able to fix incomplete journeys any more? (The OP reported
it as something of a rumour.)

I can't see any advantage whatsoever in making such a change (except
perhaps small savings in ticket office staff training, or extra
money from people phoning the 0845 helpline). On the face of it, it
would seem almost deliberately obstructive, and certainly against
the spirit of customer service (which is normally very good).

I've had a look at the training material. It is very clear that
where there is a system problem (e.g. reader is not working, card
problems or there was an emergency evacuation or something else in
LU's control) that card resetting at the ticket office will be
permitted. Where someone is simply not validating because they can't
be bothered / forgot / whatever (i.e. in their direct control) then
that will NOT be dealt with at the ticket office. Only a call to the
Oyster helpline will suffice.

The rules relating to charges and card resetting are also changing.

If you think about why the change is being made then there is a logic
to this approach. The whole point is to get people to play by the
rules and to do what they are supposed to do. If you make it too easy
to get round the rules how will people ever learn to play by the
rules? If people keep getting charged £4 and have to go to extra
effort to deal with the helpdesk perhaps they will think twice before
doing it again. Where the problem is LU's fault then the customer is
dealt with straight away - that sounds like a decent deal to me.

I concur. This change will plug a hole in the Oyster system that was
open to abuse. The critical thing now is to make sure that all Oyster
readers and gatelines are operational at all times - if a gate is
broken it can just be closed so passengers can use another one, but if
a standalone Oyster reader is out of action it should clearly be
signed as such so passengers know to use another one, and it should be
fixed ASAP. That said I don't think I've ever seen a standalone Oyster
reader that was broken.


The problems will occur at stations with no gateline - such as most of
the DLR - where it is all to easy to forget to touch out if you get
distracted at the wrong moment.