On 17 Oct 2006 12:41:39 -0700,
wrote:

This de-facto 'penalty' for incomplete journeys does plug a hole in the
Oyster system. But there will inevitably be much frustration and
frothing to come.

Tell me about it, the thing is that inevitably someone with an
incomplete journey cannot understand what they did wrong. The basic
thing people need to learn is there's more to successfully touching in
or out than waving your Oyster in the air in the approximate vicinity
of the reader. It must beep at you once, and will show you on the
screen that it has been successful. If it makes an angry three beeps,
it didn't work.
What screen? All I've ever seen is a green and red light. And when
you're at a major tube station with 10 or more gates beeping all at once
how on earth do you tell if your one has beeped once (I've used my
prepay oyster card about 12 times in the last three months, maybe four
of those at Euston, as I almost always cycle or walk in London so it's
not easy to "get used to it")

Last time I used it (exiting Euston) the gates slammed in my face
although I'd though it had beeped correctly. So I tried again and it got
very confused because the person behind me had now put their ticket in
so there was me trapped between the shut gates and the person right
behind me and the gate saying "take ticket".

After finally getting out I then had to spend five minutes queueing to
see if I had an unresolved journey (which I didn't).[1] (I did have one
once but given that it was about 4 weeks between me making that journey
and using the oyster card again I've got absolutely no idea what I did
wrong - I just ignored it and it seems to have gone away now)

[1] It was quicker to queue at the one open manned ticket window than at
the one (working) machine that could handle oyster cards at all.
Fortunately I was with my partner so we could join both queues and see
which one won. But if that's the level of support for Oyster at Euston,
what hope is there for people at other smaller stations?


I think the second main offence with them is people who have
difficulty, but the person behind is in a big rush and put their card
down, letting the first person through without using their own card
properly.
and perhaps without even realizing they haven't used it properly. I can
easily go 3 months on a 20GBP topup, probably nearer to 6 months.

I suspect that even if I get it wrong every time and get a 4GBP penalty
it will still be cheaper for me to use oyster prepay than to pay the
extra 300GBP to turn my gold card into an all zones travelcard. I realize
that in that case cash tickets might be cheaper but the convenience is
worth the extra cost which is why I did have all zones until oyster came
in so I'll stick with oyster - it's biggest pain is I can't get
auto-topup without incurring a 1.50 charge because I never know when
I'll next use the tube or from where to where - maybe one lunchtime I'll
travel from Moorgate to Old Street and then walk back to work just so I
can get it enabled as I've been caught out once where there was nowhere
to top up my oyster (custom house, 22 Apr 06) so I had to buy a cash
ticket - which I've still got :-).)

My other worry with auto-topup is that, because I use my oyster so
rarely I could easily lose it and not notice for 2 months or more
(although it lives with my Gold Card so not that likely) and someone
could have a field day with it before I got my next visa statement/bank
statement.


Still, once all the rabid arguments calm down, hopefully it'll prove to
be a better system overall.

A better system still would be to be able to buy a single using your
oyster card. I just walk up to a machine, press zone 1 single, touch my
oyster card and out comes a paper ticket. Then I a) can't get it wrong
and b) can buy tickets for other people as well. I couldn't give a toss
about the cap, I've never reached it anyway.

Prepay oyster is more convenient that cash but IME, that's all it's got
going for it. If I get many more barriers slammed on me (which hurts)
with no warning I'll go back to the all zones travelcard, which will (of
course) net Ken three plus times the amount of money from me.

Obviously as well this penalty/can't fix at station is to
discourage/prevent the "single journey Heathrow to Euston" people from
getting an oyster at Heathrow and then returning it at Euston. Ken
obviously hopes that enough of them will end up with an unresolved
journey that they then can't resolve at Euston so can't get their
deposit back/its more expensive than a cash ticket and then they will
tell their friends and this won't then become standard advice. (Actually
I suppose UK people will get the oyster at KX/Euston on their outbound
leg and return it at the same station. Foreigners at Heathrow.)


Tim.

p.s. Does anyone know what happens if you try to badge two oyster cards
at once? I've thought about getting a second card so when one runs out
of cash I can then use the other one to get me to somewhere where I can
top up. What about if I wrap the "backup" card in aluminium foil?

Rupert Goodwins wrote:

So does this mean that all the old North London Line stations are
Oystered now? Last time I transferred from the Victoria Line to the NLL
(or whatever it's called now) and got off at Camden Road, I couldn't
find one.

R

No - the North London Line *doesn't* yet accept Oyster *Pay-as-you-go
(PAYG)* - except between Richmond and Gunnersbury, and Stratford and
Canning Town [1].

If you have a season Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card then you can
use it on the North London Line just use it as if it was a paper
Travelcard, as long as it has the right zonal validity. If you don't
have all the required zones to cover you for your journey then you need
to buy an excess fare (also called a ticket extension) from the ticket
office before you start your journey (if the ticket office isn't open
you're supposed to do this at the earliest opportunity). The Silverlink
ticket machines, in common with all other National Rail (NR) ticket
machines, unfortunately don't sell excess fares.

You'll be pleased to hear however that Oyster PAYG is coming to the NLL
soon. TfL is taking control of everything currently operated by
Silverlink Metro - i.e. the NLL, the Gospel Oak to Barking line and the
Euston - Watford line [2]. TfL promise to bring Oyster PAYG to the line
as early as possible - they're taking over in November 2007.

Oyster PAYG will eventually be rolled out over the whole of the NR
network in London, but don't hold your breath - this appears like it
won't happen for a good few years yet.

-----
[1] Oyster help answer - Limited Oyster Pre-Pay acceptance on National
Rail
http://snipurl.com/Oyster_Pre_Pay_on_NR

[2] TfL
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=690

I've had a look at the training material. It is very clear that where
there is a system problem (e.g. reader is not working, card problems or
there was an emergency evacuation or something else in LU's control)
that card resetting at the ticket office will be permitted. Where
someone is simply not validating because they can't be bothered / forgot
/ whatever (i.e. in their direct control) then that will NOT be dealt
with at the ticket office. Only a call to the Oyster helpline will
suffice.


The faulty (logic-wise) validators on the DLR at Bank and on
Thameslink at London Bridge need fixing, as these both create
unresolved journeys even when used correctly.

Matthew Dickinson wrote in
:


The faulty (logic-wise) validators on the DLR at Bank and on
Thameslink at London Bridge need fixing, as these both create
unresolved journeys even when used correctly.


Has anybody managed to work out which journey/combination of tickets the
validator at Bank is actually for?

David Jackman wrote:

(snip quoted text)

The problems will occur at stations with no gateline - such as most of
the DLR - where it is all to easy to forget to touch out if you get
distracted at the wrong moment.

"Operator error" would be the euphemism used to describe this by an IT
support desk - but whilst that has the undertones of "stupid user can't
do the simplest things", it's is all too easy to imagine oneself being
caught out when in the situation you describe above.

Thus passengers need to be encouraged to change their behaviour, and
there should be lots of signs and other visual clues to remind for
passengers who've just got off a train that they need to touch out. At
Finsbury Park (an ungated station) the wall of the tunnel walkway
surrounding the Oyster readers is painted bright yellow - things like
that should be par for the course.

Mizter T wrote:
Rupert Goodwins wrote:

So does this mean that all the old North London Line stations are
Oystered now? Last time I transferred from the Victoria Line to the NLL
(or whatever it's called now) and got off at Camden Road, I couldn't
find one.

R

No - the North London Line *doesn't* yet accept Oyster *Pay-as-you-go
(PAYG)* - except between Richmond and Gunnersbury, and Stratford and
Canning Town [1].

If you have a season Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card then you can
use it on the North London Line just use it as if it was a paper
Travelcard, as long as it has the right zonal validity. If you don't
have all the required zones to cover you for your journey then you need
to buy an excess fare (also called a ticket extension) from the ticket
office before you start your journey (if the ticket office isn't open
you're supposed to do this at the earliest opportunity). The Silverlink
ticket machines, in common with all other National Rail (NR) ticket
machines, unfortunately don't sell excess fares

OK. Thanks very much for that.

Let's see if I've got this straight. If I get on the Tube system
outside my travelcard zones (1 and 2),even though I've got PAYG credit
on the same Oyster, I have to remember to buy a paper ticket for the
extra zones if I'm going to get off at one of the NLL stations - even
though my extra-zonal activity is entirely on the Underground, for
which my Oyster PAYG is valid - otherwise when I next touch in the
system will spot that I have an unterminated journey from outside my
travelcard zones and assume it was four quid's worth?

Rupert

Rupert Goodwins wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Rupert Goodwins wrote:

So does this mean that all the old North London Line stations are
Oystered now? Last time I transferred from the Victoria Line to the NLL
(or whatever it's called now) and got off at Camden Road, I couldn't
find one.

R

No - the North London Line *doesn't* yet accept Oyster *Pay-as-you-go
(PAYG)* - except between Richmond and Gunnersbury, and Stratford and
Canning Town [1].

If you have a season Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card then you can
use it on the North London Line just use it as if it was a paper
Travelcard, as long as it has the right zonal validity. If you don't
have all the required zones to cover you for your journey then you need
to buy an excess fare (also called a ticket extension) from the ticket
office before you start your journey (if the ticket office isn't open
you're supposed to do this at the earliest opportunity). The Silverlink
ticket machines, in common with all other National Rail (NR) ticket
machines, unfortunately don't sell excess fares

OK. Thanks very much for that.

Let's see if I've got this straight. If I get on the Tube system
outside my travelcard zones (1 and 2),even though I've got PAYG credit
on the same Oyster, I have to remember to buy a paper ticket for the
extra zones if I'm going to get off at one of the NLL stations - even
though my extra-zonal activity is entirely on the Underground, for
which my Oyster PAYG is valid - otherwise when I next touch in the
system will spot that I have an unterminated journey from outside my
travelcard zones and assume it was four quid's worth?


No - afraid to say you've got it all wrong!

Let's use a real world example so we can be clear on this. You have a
zones 1&2 Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card. You get on the
Victoria Line at Tottenham Hale in zone using your Oyster card. Your
Oyster's PAYG facility will automatically cover the ticket extension
you need.

You get off at Highbury and Islington (zone 2) to transfer to the NLL -
and when you do you should touch your Oyster card on the Oyster reader
that is somewhere between the Victoria Line platform and the NLL
platform - you do _not_ need to go out the gates and back in again.

You get off the NLL at Camden Road (zone 2) and exit the station,
passing through the automatic gates if they are active. If the gates at
Camden Road are open, you don't need to touch-out on them as you have
not used Oyster PAYG for your NLL journey (as it ain't valid on the
NLL) - however no harm will be done if you do touch-out there.

Does that make things clear?

A bit of advance warning for those who haven't heard - from November,
if you use pre-pay Oyster, and you fail to touch in or out at any point
of your travels where you're supposed to do so, you will find yourself
being charged £4.00 for the incomplete journey.
All the signs up say this came in on October 10th.

I also saw one of these posters today - I took particular note of it
given the previous discussions here on utl had suggested this change
wasn't coming until November. I'll try and take a snap of one of the
posters tomorrow and post a link here.

Hmm. It's taken me the best part of five minutes to make sense of this
post. After scrolling back a few messages, and back down again, I've
finally tumbled to the fact that some chuff-wit has top posted and left
the previous message completely intact.

Sorry Joyce and MizterT for confusing you with my previous post!

What it should have said was:

"Four stations are currently being trialed regarding the £4.00 charge for
failing to touch in / out"

On 18 Oct 2006 12:52:04 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:


Note also that there is going to be a big publicity campaign about this
so more detail will be in the public domain shortly.

As you see elsewhere in this thread some posters displayed at stations
claim that it's already started! I hope that the publicity campaign is
comprehensive and emphasises that one has to touch-in and out at the
start and end of every journey.

There is a trial underway at present at a small number of LU and DLR
stations where the new charging regime is under test. The trial started
on 8th October 2006.

The posters probably refer to this.

The stations are Aldgate, West Ham, New Cross, Westferry, Stepney Green,
Upney and Tower Gateway.

HTH
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 18 Oct 2006 09:01:39 -0700, wrote:

I've read through all 40 posts (I've never seen such activity on an
internet thread I started!) and don't think this has been mentioned.
Additional to the £4.00 charge for incomplete journeys, Oyster cards
will now require either a valid season ticket, OR a minimum of £5
credit or they will not function. I believe this is a reaction to the
fact people would stick £1.00 on the card as minimum fare that would
open the gates, then worry about their negative balance later
(something that contradicts the Conditions of Carriage).

Surely that is what the £3 deposit is supposed to cover?

If there's a £5 credit minimum, that effectively increases the deposit
from £3 to £8. I can't see any possible justification for this. I bet
someone at TfL has calculated £5 x (number of PAYG cards issued) and
started rubbing their hands.