asdf wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:21:33 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

Are you sure about this? This is a long-standing question on this
group (at least for those who care about such things, of whom I'm
perhaps the only one), and is still mentally filed in my "unanswered"
category. IIRC it was originally raised by someone who wanted to
travel from Ilford to Liverpool Street (both have barriers with
validators) on a Z34 Travelcard on Oyster, and wanted to know if the
extension would be deducted correctly or if they'd have to leave the
train at Stratford and use a platform validator there, but no one
seemed to know the answer.

I'm 99.9% certain about it.

I've just has a look into the Ilford to Liverpool Street query you were
wondering about. My two sources for information are the list of NR
routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted [1], and also the new map that
illustrates which NR routes accept Oyster PAYG [2]. Basically my
conclusion is that the passenger needs to touch-in on the platform
reader at Stratford. I'm 99.9% certain about this as well (because I'm
annoying like that).

I'll presume that the passenger, Mr X, has a zones 3&4 Travelcard
loaded on their Oyster card.

~~~~~
The Ilford to Stratford NR portion of the journey is an NR route where
PAYG is *not accepted*. However Mr X has a Z34 Travelcard for that part
of the journey, which is fine. The gates at Ilford (if there are any)
will let Mr X through as he has a valid Travelcard on his Oyster - but
they don't provide an entry point or onto the PAYG system and
electronically 'mark' his Oyster card , because PAYG *isn't accepted*
from Ilford.

The Stratford to Liverpool Street portion of the journey is a NR route
where PAYG *is accepted*. However Mr X has not yet entered onto the
PAYG system - the Ilford to Stratford journey has been carried out
under the auspices of his Z34 Travelcard. He thus needs to enter onto
the PAYG system - by touching-in on the platform reader at Stratford
he's 'marked' his Oyster card with an entry point and can then continue
to Liverpool Street.

On exiting the gates at Liverpool Street the system will adjust his
balance to ensure the correct fare for Stratford to Liverpool Street is
from his card - in the case of Mr X that'll be a zones 1&2 single
journey, as his Travelcard already covers zone 3.
~~~~~

The critical thing is to 'mark' your Oyster card when you enter and
leave the PAYG system (in this case at Stratford). Merely using an
Oyster card to pass through automatic gates at an NR station that
*doesn't accept PAYG* (such as Ilford) is no good - said gates merely
check to see if you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster, they don't
do anything else whatsoever.

Incidentally the other way to do this would be for Mr X to buy an
excess fare (or ticket extension - two terms for the same thing) from
the ticket office at Ilford. This would be issued on paper and would
cover the journey from boundary of zone 2 (the border between zones 2
and 3) to Liverpool Street. It could be a issued as a single or a
return, and could possibly be cheaper than the PAYG fare - especially
if it was a Cheap Day Return, and would be further reduced with the use
of a railcard. Of course if Mr X wanted to make onward Tube journeys
from Liverpool Street he'd be better off using PAYG.

Hope that's cleared things up.


-----
[1] Oyster help answer - Limited Oyster Pre-Pay acceptance on National
Rail
http://snipurl.com/Oyster_Pre_Pay_on_NR

[2] Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) on National Rail map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...r-PAYG-Map.pdf

Robin Mayes wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...

Now for the obvious question - do you have a list of those four
stations? Presumably if a person starts their journey (and touches in)
or ends their journey (and touches out) at one of these four trial
stations but has failed to touch-in/out at the other end then the £4
charge applies.

I saw the poster at Surrey Quays on the East London Line the other day.

According to Paul C in another part of this thread:

Aldgate, West Ham, New Cross, Stepney Green, Upney are the LUL trial
stations.

Westferry and Tower Gateway are the DLR trial stations.

Thanks for your reply - unfortunately I saw Paul C's post with the
required info just after I asked you! Such is life on usenet.

I presume that when you touch-in at these stations using PAYG £4 is
debited, which is adjusted when you later touch-out so only the correct
fare is taken.

Likewise if you touch-out at one of these stations having failed to
touch-in elsewhere then I presume £4 is taken there and then.

Going from what Paul has said elsewhere it doesn't sound like either of
these things happen if a Travelcard (with correct zonal validity) is
loaded on the Oyster. However this does thus leave open a hole in the
system where a passenger with Travelcard can enter/exit the system at a
gated station within their Travelcard's zonal validity but can then
leave the system at an ungated station where they will suffer no
penalty if they fail to touch-out.

Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

In the case of the example I gave, this is at Highbury & Islington -
you move from the PAYG territory of the Tube to the non-PAYG territory
of the NLL. Thus at Highbury & Islington you need to touch-out from the
Tube network to tell the system you've finished your Tube journey.

OK - this is where I have problems! The journey you describe is exactly
the one I quite often do, and which has always puzzled me - I don't
know where on the interchange between the Victoria Line and the NLL
line at H&I the magic card reader is. I'll have to look next time I'm
there. I don't think the 'always touch in and touch out' reminder works
very well in these locations, at least not for me, because there's no
sense of changing in or out of anything.

The
Oyster system doesn't care what you do on the NLL, as it's not PAYG
territory. Of course an NLL ticket inspector cares about this - but as
you have a zones 1&2 Travelcard which covers your High & I to Camden
Road journey he'd be happy too.


As long as I haven't strayed through the Hampstead Heath Zone 3
Wormhole, eh? (another bugbear).

When PAYG is adopted on the NLL (in late 2007/early 2008) then you
won't need to touch-out at High & I, you'll just be able to continue
onto the NLL as your whole journey (both the Victoria line and the NLL)
will be within PAYG territory. When this happens, touching out at
Camden Road will suffice - **but please note this is _not_yet_ the
case, so don't try it tomorrow!**

It's not a question of trying it, it's a matter of trying to remember
what is a fairly abstruse quirk of the zoning rules in time to avoid
being nabbed.

Thanks. I know this will all be sorted out in the end, but... hey, you
know.

R

Rupert Goodwins wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

In the case of the example I gave, this is at Highbury & Islington -
you move from the PAYG territory of the Tube to the non-PAYG territory
of the NLL. Thus at Highbury & Islington you need to touch-out from the
Tube network to tell the system you've finished your Tube journey.

OK - this is where I have problems! The journey you describe is exactly
the one I quite often do, and which has always puzzled me - I don't
know where on the interchange between the Victoria Line and the NLL
line at H&I the magic card reader is. I'll have to look next time I'm
there. I don't think the 'always touch in and touch out' reminder works
very well in these locations, at least not for me, because there's no
sense of changing in or out of anything.

The magic Oyster reader at High & I (actually I think there are two at
least) is IIRC located on the main concourse passageway (it's actually
a bridge over the NLL below) near the ticket gateline - so coming from
the Victoria line it's the concourse at at the top of the escalators,
and from the NLL the concourse at the top of the stairs. They are
there!

I agree that the always touch in/out message doesn't really cover this
situation. It's hard to word a message that would cover such a scenario
- you just need to think that this is the point where you switch from
the PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.


The
Oyster system doesn't care what you do on the NLL, as it's not PAYG
territory. Of course an NLL ticket inspector cares about this - but as
you have a zones 1&2 Travelcard which covers your High & I to Camden
Road journey he'd be happy too.


As long as I haven't strayed through the Hampstead Heath Zone 3
Wormhole, eh? (another bugbear).

Completely agree your thoughts on that - it's a major pain in the arse.
Hampstead Heath used to be in zone 2 but then when when rail
privatisation was looming it was changed to a zone 3 station to ensure
the line's operator got a higher take from ticket sales plus a bigger
slice of the Travelcard revenue cake. I think it was at the same time
that Willesden Junction was moved from being a station in both zone 2/3
to being zone 3 only.

I'll be blunt and say that I think it highly likely there are many
people who are holders of Zones 1&2 Travelcards who take their chances
and pass through Hampstead Heath on the NLL when travelling between
zone 2 stations without buying an excess fare. I think it very possible
there are a good number of people who don't even realise they're
supposed to buy an excess fare - starting station is zone 2 (e.g. West
Hampstead), destination station is zone 2 (High & I), thus if one
hasn't actually followed the course of the NLL on a zonal map logic
would suggests a zone 2 Travelcard would suffice.

Until (I think) January or February 2006 Silverlink didn't even operate
a penalty fare scheme! Thus getting on the NLL without a ticket was
fine (including getting on without having paid the excess to pass
through Hampstead Heath) - and on my occasional travels on the line I
never saw a conductor selling tickets on the train. I haven't seen any
on-board ticket inspections since then either, though I have seen them
at stations (at Willesden Junction the passageways between the
Bakerloo/Euston-Watford platforms and the high-level NLL platforms
seems to be a favourite haunt).

I hope that when TfL take over they'll address this situation -
Hampstead Heath should definitely go back into zone 2, and the
situation at Willesden Junction should be reviewed. If there's a real
need to put some of the line in a different zone for revenue purposes
it shouldn't be by using these zone 3 'islands' - instead perhaps Acton
Central could be moved from zone 2 to zone 3?

When PAYG is adopted on the NLL (in late 2007/early 2008) then you
won't need to touch-out at High & I, you'll just be able to continue
onto the NLL as your whole journey (both the Victoria line and the NLL)
will be within PAYG territory. When this happens, touching out at
Camden Road will suffice - **but please note this is _not_yet_ the
case, so don't try it tomorrow!**

It's not a question of trying it, it's a matter of trying to remember
what is a fairly abstruse quirk of the zoning rules in time to avoid
being nabbed.

Thanks. I know this will all be sorted out in the end, but... hey, you
know.

Yes, the situation is far from ideal. At least the NLL will adopt PAYG
fairly soon - though unfortunately similar situations will persist
elsewhere in London where PAYG territory intersects with non-PAYG
territory at various Tube-NR interchanges.

However I guess one could look at it this way - Oyster PAYG would still
be a pipe dream if TfL were waiting for the NR TOCs to agree to it.
Paul Corfield worked on the Prestige project for LU (Prestige is
basically the overall ticketing system of which Oyster is a part), and
he's said that it was very difficult getting any of the TOCs to take
the project seriously in the late 90's.

However under the revenue framework in which the TOCs operated it
wasn't really in their interest to commit to Oyster PAYG - it needed
central government, who had the franchise agreements with the TOCs, to
make Oyster PAYG acceptance a condition of that franchise. The
government (through the DfT) has only just made an undertaking to this
effect earlier this year, though the timescale for this to happen is
still a bit hazy in my mind. It seems that PAYG acceptance will go live
on a TOC-by-TOC basis (much to the confusion of everyone!).

By forging ahead with it Oyster PAYG on the Tube, DLR, buses and trams
TfL has to a certain extent forced the hand of the DfT into being more
amenable to making PAYG a requirement on NR in London, rather than just
going along with the less-than-satisfactory status quo.

quick rant Still, if it takes this long to sort out this issue then
the DfT's words on "integrated transport" are just that - words, with
no actions to back them up. With this attitude from the top god help
the rest of the country which doesn't have the likes of TfL to provide
strong leadership (and of course everywhere but London has had the
curse of bus deregulation put upon it)./quick rant

Mizter T wrote:
The magic Oyster reader at High & I (actually I think there are two at
least) is IIRC located on the main concourse passageway (it's actually
a bridge over the NLL below) near the ticket gateline - so coming from
the Victoria line it's the concourse at at the top of the escalators,
and from the NLL the concourse at the top of the stairs. They are
there!

There are also readers on the Victoria Line platforms, if that's
easier. I occasionally used to jump out and use them (when I was using
Prepay) if I was heading to town and had forgotten to touch in at
Finsbury Park.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Mizter T wrote:
asdf wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:21:33 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

Are you sure about this? This is a long-standing question on this
group (at least for those who care about such things, of whom I'm
perhaps the only one), and is still mentally filed in my "unanswered"
category. IIRC it was originally raised by someone who wanted to
travel from Ilford to Liverpool Street (both have barriers with
validators) on a Z34 Travelcard on Oyster, and wanted to know if the
extension would be deducted correctly or if they'd have to leave the
train at Stratford and use a platform validator there, but no one
seemed to know the answer.

I'm 99.9% certain about it.

I've just has a look into the Ilford to Liverpool Street query you were
wondering about. My two sources for information are the list of NR
routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted [1], and also the new map that
illustrates which NR routes accept Oyster PAYG [2]. Basically my
conclusion is that the passenger needs to touch-in on the platform
reader at Stratford. I'm 99.9% certain about this as well (because I'm
annoying like that).

I'll presume that the passenger, Mr X, has a zones 3&4 Travelcard
loaded on their Oyster card.

~~~~~
The Ilford to Stratford NR portion of the journey is an NR route where
PAYG is *not accepted*. However Mr X has a Z34 Travelcard for that part
of the journey, which is fine. The gates at Ilford (if there are any)
will let Mr X through as he has a valid Travelcard on his Oyster - but
they don't provide an entry point or onto the PAYG system and
electronically 'mark' his Oyster card , because PAYG *isn't accepted*
from Ilford.

The Stratford to Liverpool Street portion of the journey is a NR route
where PAYG *is accepted*. However Mr X has not yet entered onto the
PAYG system - the Ilford to Stratford journey has been carried out
under the auspices of his Z34 Travelcard. He thus needs to enter onto
the PAYG system - by touching-in on the platform reader at Stratford
he's 'marked' his Oyster card with an entry point and can then continue
to Liverpool Street.

On exiting the gates at Liverpool Street the system will adjust his
balance to ensure the correct fare for Stratford to Liverpool Street is
from his card - in the case of Mr X that'll be a zones 1&2 single
journey, as his Travelcard already covers zone 3.
~~~~~

The critical thing is to 'mark' your Oyster card when you enter and
leave the PAYG system (in this case at Stratford). Merely using an
Oyster card to pass through automatic gates at an NR station that
*doesn't accept PAYG* (such as Ilford) is no good - said gates merely
check to see if you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster, they don't
do anything else whatsoever.


Hope that's cleared things up.



Actually, I don't think that the system works like this. I have a Zone
1-2 Annual Oyster Travelcard and on occasion I travel to Moor Park. If
I look at the pre-pay journeys, on the website, my 'touching in' in
Zone 2 doesn't appear and I just see the correct amount (GBP1.00 on a
Saturday) deducted upon exiting at Moor Park. Going the other way, GBP
1.00 is deducted on entry at Moor Park and the Exit (in Zone 1) is
marked up as GBP 0.00. The systems seems to be assuming that I have
started the journey within my Travelcard zones and the pre-pay only
comes into play when I touch in/out outside the Travelcard validity.

So, for the Ilford - Liverpool Street journey, if it is all on Oyster,
the extension to Liverpool Street should be charged upon exiting, using
the travelcard validity as 'start' point. The Oystercard helpline have
confirmed that this is how the prepay works for extensions out of Zones
1-2, I'd assume that it works the same going in as well.

asdf wrote:
Since then, I've always waited for the gates to close before touching
my card on the reader, and I haven't had a problem since.

Thats perhaps the best advice. Well, you don't have to wait til the
gates CLOSE, but its a good idea to make sure the person in front is
already walking through them before your Oyster goes near the
validator!

Less haste more speed as they say.

In article . com,
() wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum
balance on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly
lacking in proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move
somewhat unlikely.

Again been sitting here bored and found some more info on this. The
current Fares and Tickets leaflet clearly states what changes are
coming and can be found here

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Specifically on pages 2 and 3 - "Failure to touch in and out
correctly will result in a penalty fare."

AND "when you touch in at the start of your journey a charge of up
to £5 will be deducted from your balance. When you touch out at the end
of your journey the charge will be adjusted so that you only pay the
correct Oyster single fare for your journey. If you fail to touch in
and touch out the charge will be applied to your card and the
journey will not count towards your daily cap." Hence the £5 minimum
top up.

I keep a minimum on my oyster because that covers my first journey if i
can't top up before entering the underground. I almost never have £5 as
I tend to top up with the amount I'm using that trip, usually £3 or
£3.50. Keeping a £1.50 balance means I didn't get caught out by the lack
of a proper ticket office at King's Cross of if the queues are too long
now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Andy wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I've just has a look into the Ilford to Liverpool Street query you were
wondering about. My two sources for information are the list of NR
routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted [1], and also the new map that
illustrates which NR routes accept Oyster PAYG [2]. Basically my
conclusion is that the passenger needs to touch-in on the platform
reader at Stratford. I'm 99.9% certain about this as well (because I'm
annoying like that).

I'll presume that the passenger, Mr X, has a zones 3&4 Travelcard
loaded on their Oyster card.

~~~~~
The Ilford to Stratford NR portion of the journey is an NR route where
PAYG is *not accepted*. However Mr X has a Z34 Travelcard for that part
of the journey, which is fine. The gates at Ilford (if there are any)
will let Mr X through as he has a valid Travelcard on his Oyster - but
they don't provide an entry point or onto the PAYG system and
electronically 'mark' his Oyster card , because PAYG *isn't accepted*
from Ilford.

The Stratford to Liverpool Street portion of the journey is a NR route
where PAYG *is accepted*. However Mr X has not yet entered onto the
PAYG system - the Ilford to Stratford journey has been carried out
under the auspices of his Z34 Travelcard. He thus needs to enter onto
the PAYG system - by touching-in on the platform reader at Stratford
he's 'marked' his Oyster card with an entry point and can then continue
to Liverpool Street.

On exiting the gates at Liverpool Street the system will adjust his
balance to ensure the correct fare for Stratford to Liverpool Street is
from his card - in the case of Mr X that'll be a zones 1&2 single
journey, as his Travelcard already covers zone 3.
~~~~~

The critical thing is to 'mark' your Oyster card when you enter and
leave the PAYG system (in this case at Stratford). Merely using an
Oyster card to pass through automatic gates at an NR station that
*doesn't accept PAYG* (such as Ilford) is no good - said gates merely
check to see if you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster, they don't
do anything else whatsoever.


Hope that's cleared things up.



Actually, I don't think that the system works like this. I have a Zone
1-2 Annual Oyster Travelcard and on occasion I travel to Moor Park. If
I look at the pre-pay journeys, on the website, my 'touching in' in
Zone 2 doesn't appear and I just see the correct amount (GBP1.00 on a
Saturday) deducted upon exiting at Moor Park. Going the other way, GBP
1.00 is deducted on entry at Moor Park and the Exit (in Zone 1) is
marked up as GBP 0.00. The systems seems to be assuming that I have
started the journey within my Travelcard zones and the pre-pay only
comes into play when I touch in/out outside the Travelcard validity.

Bear in mind that this is what is presented to you as a passenger, not
neccessarily what is actually recorded on your Oyster card.

Let's say your journey to Moor Park starts at Finchley Road (zone 2
Underground station) and you have a Z1&2 Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster.

When you touch-in at Finchley Road your card is electronically marked
with zone 2 as your start point - this would be the case whether you
were going out of town to Moor Park or into town to Kings Cross.

Thus when you get to Moor Park and touch-out the system knows how much
extra to charge you - as you already had zone 2 covered which is a
single Z3-6 journey.

If, however, you walked through an open gate at Finchley Road and
didn't touch-in your card would not have an electronic mark recording
your start point.

Thus when you go to Moor Park the system would not know where you've
started your journey, so would not know how to calculate the fare
charged. At the moment, when this occurs the minimum fare from that
station is charged. From 19 November 2006 you will be charged £4.00
(which is a kind of maximum fare). I think it's important to note that
the system will _not_ presume you've come from zone 2 just because you
have a Travelcard loaded on your Oyster.

Another thing to note is that if you're just travelling within the
zonal validity of your Travelcard it appears there won't be a
requirement to touch-in and out - so you'll be able to walk through the
open gate at Finchley Road without touching-in and exit through the
gates at Kings Cross without being penalised (this has not yet been
confiemed though).


So, for the Ilford - Liverpool Street journey, if it is all on Oyster,
the extension to Liverpool Street should be charged upon exiting, using
the travelcard validity as 'start' point. The Oystercard helpline have
confirmed that this is how the prepay works for extensions out of Zones
1-2, I'd assume that it works the same going in as well.

No - because Oyster PAYG is *not* valid from Ilford (just as it's not
valid from most National Rail stations). Even if you pass through the
gates at Ilford, they will *not* mark your Oyster card - they thus
_do_not_ serve as an entry point onto the PAYG system. If you're making
a journey that has a PAYG element you _need_ to touch-in at the
beginning of the leg of your journey where PAYG is accepted.

The gates at Ilford are "dumb" - the only thing they do with an Oyster
card is check whether or not it has a valid Travelcard on it for the
zone the station is in. They have no PAYG intelligence whatsoever. _If_
Ilford was an Underground station the situation would be different - in
that case they would provide an entry point to the PAYG system, and
would electronically mark your card as such. But Ilford is a National
Rail station and PAYG is a definitely not valid from there.

Annoying, maybe, but that's the way it is for the moment. (Also
annoyingly) I'm 99.9% certain that everything I've said above is
correct.

Mizter T wrote:
Andy wrote:


Actually, I don't think that the system works like this. I have a Zone
1-2 Annual Oyster Travelcard and on occasion I travel to Moor Park. If
I look at the pre-pay journeys, on the website, my 'touching in' in
Zone 2 doesn't appear and I just see the correct amount (GBP1.00 on a
Saturday) deducted upon exiting at Moor Park. Going the other way, GBP
1.00 is deducted on entry at Moor Park and the Exit (in Zone 1) is
marked up as GBP 0.00. The systems seems to be assuming that I have
started the journey within my Travelcard zones and the pre-pay only
comes into play when I touch in/out outside the Travelcard validity.

Bear in mind that this is what is presented to you as a passenger, not
neccessarily what is actually recorded on your Oyster card.

Let's say your journey to Moor Park starts at Finchley Road (zone 2
Underground station) and you have a Z1&2 Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster.

When you touch-in at Finchley Road your card is electronically marked
with zone 2 as your start point - this would be the case whether you
were going out of town to Moor Park or into town to Kings Cross.

Thus when you get to Moor Park and touch-out the system knows how much
extra to charge you - as you already had zone 2 covered which is a
single Z3-6 journey.

If, however, you walked through an open gate at Finchley Road and
didn't touch-in your card would not have an electronic mark recording
your start point.

Thus when you go to Moor Park the system would not know where you've
started your journey, so would not know how to calculate the fare
charged. At the moment, when this occurs the minimum fare from that
station is charged. From 19 November 2006 you will be charged £4.00
(which is a kind of maximum fare). I think it's important to note that
the system will _not_ presume you've come from zone 2 just because you
have a Travelcard loaded on your Oyster.

Yes, but I don't think that the system currently works like that. I
think that, when I touch in at Stockwell (in the journey mentioned) the
card sees that I have a Travelcard and just lets me in, no marking of
info on the card. Then when I touch out, it checks for Travelcard
validity first and then deducts the Zone 3-6 single fare from the card.
I have, in the early days of oysters, done a similar journey where I
couldn't touch in (gates switched off) and only been charged the
'correct' single extension fare. I believe that the current system
makes any Travelcard validity override the need to touch in, this may
change with the GBP4.00 charge being introduced.

The reason that I think that this is the case is that on the southbound
trip, the pre-pay has GBP 1.00 deducted, so obviously knows that I have
a travelcard on the Oyster. I was under the impression that the PAYG
system deducts some money when you touch in and then adds or subtracts
the balance when you touch out. It can't do when touching in within
travelcard validity, so the only touching actually necessary is at the
end.

We'd really need to know what the internal workings of the system are
to see what actually happens though as it is all conjecture until we
do. Maybe I'll try and see what happens if I access the Met line via
Thameslink (Loughborogh Junction is accessible) next time I have to go
out of Zone, so that I don't have to touch in with my Travelcard .


Another thing to note is that if you're just travelling within the
zonal validity of your Travelcard it appears there won't be a
requirement to touch-in and out - so you'll be able to walk through the
open gate at Finchley Road without touching-in and exit through the
gates at Kings Cross without being penalised (this has not yet been
confiemed though).


This I have done in the early days, when gate lines were still getting
turned off due to staff being unfamiliar and more recently when the
police were scanning customers at Stockwell and we got let out of a
side door without passing any oyster readers.


So, for the Ilford - Liverpool Street journey, if it is all on Oyster,
the extension to Liverpool Street should be charged upon exiting, using
the travelcard validity as 'start' point. The Oystercard helpline have
confirmed that this is how the prepay works for extensions out of Zones
1-2, I'd assume that it works the same going in as well.

No - because Oyster PAYG is *not* valid from Ilford (just as it's not
valid from most National Rail stations). Even if you pass through the
gates at Ilford, they will *not* mark your Oyster card - they thus
_do_not_ serve as an entry point onto the PAYG system. If you're making
a journey that has a PAYG element you _need_ to touch-in at the
beginning of the leg of your journey where PAYG is accepted.


Yes, but do you KNOW that the oyster is marked. The evidence doesn't
say that it definately is (at the moment anyway) otherwise I'd would
have a 'touch in' and a 'touch out' which ever way I did my Stockwell -
Moor Park trip. However this only occurs heading into Zone 2, not out
of zone 2.

The gates at Ilford are "dumb" - the only thing they do with an Oyster
card is check whether or not it has a valid Travelcard on it for the
zone the station is in. They have no PAYG intelligence whatsoever. _If_
Ilford was an Underground station the situation would be different - in
that case they would provide an entry point to the PAYG system, and
would electronically mark your card as such. But Ilford is a National
Rail station and PAYG is a definitely not valid from there.


Yes, but, as I've said above, I think that the PAYG logic takes
travelcards into account, otherwise, I'd expect all the details of
Zone1/2 journeys to be listed in my journey history.

Annoying, maybe, but that's the way it is for the moment. (Also
annoyingly) I'm 99.9% certain that everything I've said above is
correct.

I think we need the comments of someone who has the knowledge of how
travelcards combined with PAYG are actually dealt with. My view is that
travelcard holders are currently given the benefit of the doubt as to
where they have entered the system.