Andy wrote:
I believe that the current system
makes any Travelcard validity override the need to touch in, this may
change with the GBP4.00 charge being introduced.


What has happened for you is, as you have a 1-2 season ticket, you have
paid a 3-6 single, which is the maximum fare for any journey you could
possibly make (except north of moor park), which is in effect the same
as the £4 penalty for pre-pay users with no season ticket. Bear in
mind though that if you touch in but fail to touch out, lets say in
zone 3, with a 1-2 travel card, you'll likely be charged for the full
3-6 single rather than zone 3 only.

You should still be touching in even if the gates are open and you have
a season ticket for where you are, as it allows LUL to monitor the use
of the service, and (hopefully) to provide a better service for all.

wrote:
Andy wrote:
I believe that the current system
makes any Travelcard validity override the need to touch in, this may
change with the GBP4.00 charge being introduced.


What has happened for you is, as you have a 1-2 season ticket, you have
paid a 3-6 single, which is the maximum fare for any journey you could
possibly make (except north of moor park), which is in effect the same
as the £4 penalty for pre-pay users with no season ticket. Bear in
mind though that if you touch in but fail to touch out, lets say in
zone 3, with a 1-2 travel card, you'll likely be charged for the full
3-6 single rather than zone 3 only.

Yes, but I havn't paid anything until I touch out, unlike with PAYG. I
find the example of zone 3 a little confusing, if you are saying that
if I touch in Zone 3 and don't touch out, I'm likely to be charged for
a zone 3-6 single, then I'm not actually certain if this is the case, I
still think (but am not sure) that I might be charged for a zone 3-3
single with the system then assuming the travelcard is used to
complete. Of course, off-peak there is no difference in the two fares
and so making the comparison is impossible.
The only way I can see to test things off peak is to make a journey to
Zone A-D and see what the prepay deducts on the start of the return
journey (is it the minimum GBP1.00, or GBP1.30 (Zone A -3), 1.70(Zone B
- 3) or 2.00(Zone C or D - 3) to get me back to Zone2)

We need someone in the know to give us the full story.


You should still be touching in even if the gates are open and you have
a season ticket for where you are, as it allows LUL to monitor the use
of the service, and (hopefully) to provide a better service for all.

I know this and this is why I do so, except where the gateline is out
of use.

On 18 Oct 2006 15:47:01 -0700, "
wrote:


Tim Woodall wrote:
What screen? All I've ever seen is a green and red light.

p.s. Does anyone know what happens if you try to badge two oyster cards
at once? I've thought about getting a second card so when one runs out
of cash I can then use the other one to get me to somewhere where I can
top up. What about if I wrap the "backup" card in aluminium foil?

As far as I am aware, some form of screen exists on all gates and
validators, whatever their design. Certainly on the old pneumatic
gates the information pops up on the glass panel toward the top of the
gate, where the green entry arrow is illuminated, and tells you either
your current balance or "ticket 1 near expiry" if you have a season
ticket. This is the same place where it tells you "seek assistance" if
its giving you grief. Other designs have this in a different place -
If I remember right, I believe the newer gates like those in Kings
Cross (coming off the Picc) have it on a small LCD display by the
Oyster reader.

Sorry but you have this the wrong way round.

There are three designs of paddle gate on LUL :-

a) original pneumatic with the wider stanchions and square illuminated
displays (what we call a POD display).
b) next generation electric gate with narrower stanchions and round
illuminated displays.
c) current generation electric gate with narrow stanchions and round
illuminated displays. Some of these are short length and some are also
Oyster card only.

On model (a) there is a small two line display which is flat on the top
of the gate just above the top of the actual Oyster card reader. This
will display value deducted and balance remaining or other relevant info
but the user must look down towards the Oyster reader to read the
display. This is because the POD display has no capability to show text
messages other than the entry / exit red cross / green arrow / seek
assistance signs. It was not considered sensible to re-engineer the
first generation gate PODs hence the difference in orientation between
the designs.

On the electric gates the POD displays have the ability to show a wider
range of messages. The stanchion width is too narrow to incorporate the
flat design of the pneumatic designs. Therefore a passenger using an
electric gate should look ahead and slightly down to their right at the
POD display as they walk through. That will show value deducted /
remaining or whether a ticket is about to expire.

Not having used PAYG or Auto Top Up I don't know what messages are
displayed in relation to these products but I assume appropriate
messages are shown.

As others have said the validators at manual gates or at stand alone
locations have a two line display that is similar in design to the
pneumatic gates displays. DLR validators are similar but are in a
special metal housing.

On buses the display is on the driver's ticket machine but I find it
very hard to read as the display is dark text on a darkish grey
background. On bendy buses there is a display at each validator. On the
heritage routes a conductor looks after your fare deduction!

I can't tell you what happens on Tramlink as I have not been on it in
ages and ages.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 19 Oct 2006 05:25:10 -0700, "Andy" wrote:


Mizter T wrote:
asdf wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:21:33 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

Are you sure about this? This is a long-standing question on this
group (at least for those who care about such things, of whom I'm
perhaps the only one), and is still mentally filed in my "unanswered"
category. IIRC it was originally raised by someone who wanted to
travel from Ilford to Liverpool Street (both have barriers with
validators) on a Z34 Travelcard on Oyster, and wanted to know if the
extension would be deducted correctly or if they'd have to leave the
train at Stratford and use a platform validator there, but no one
seemed to know the answer.

I'm 99.9% certain about it.

I've just has a look into the Ilford to Liverpool Street query you were
wondering about. My two sources for information are the list of NR
routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted [1], and also the new map that
illustrates which NR routes accept Oyster PAYG [2]. Basically my
conclusion is that the passenger needs to touch-in on the platform
reader at Stratford. I'm 99.9% certain about this as well (because I'm
annoying like that).

I'll presume that the passenger, Mr X, has a zones 3&4 Travelcard
loaded on their Oyster card.

~~~~~
The Ilford to Stratford NR portion of the journey is an NR route where
PAYG is *not accepted*. However Mr X has a Z34 Travelcard for that part
of the journey, which is fine. The gates at Ilford (if there are any)
will let Mr X through as he has a valid Travelcard on his Oyster - but
they don't provide an entry point or onto the PAYG system and
electronically 'mark' his Oyster card , because PAYG *isn't accepted*
from Ilford.

The Stratford to Liverpool Street portion of the journey is a NR route
where PAYG *is accepted*. However Mr X has not yet entered onto the
PAYG system - the Ilford to Stratford journey has been carried out
under the auspices of his Z34 Travelcard. He thus needs to enter onto
the PAYG system - by touching-in on the platform reader at Stratford
he's 'marked' his Oyster card with an entry point and can then continue
to Liverpool Street.

On exiting the gates at Liverpool Street the system will adjust his
balance to ensure the correct fare for Stratford to Liverpool Street is
from his card - in the case of Mr X that'll be a zones 1&2 single
journey, as his Travelcard already covers zone 3.
~~~~~

The critical thing is to 'mark' your Oyster card when you enter and
leave the PAYG system (in this case at Stratford). Merely using an
Oyster card to pass through automatic gates at an NR station that
*doesn't accept PAYG* (such as Ilford) is no good - said gates merely
check to see if you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster, they don't
do anything else whatsoever.


Hope that's cleared things up.



Actually, I don't think that the system works like this. I have a Zone
1-2 Annual Oyster Travelcard and on occasion I travel to Moor Park. If
I look at the pre-pay journeys, on the website, my 'touching in' in
Zone 2 doesn't appear and I just see the correct amount (GBP1.00 on a
Saturday) deducted upon exiting at Moor Park. Going the other way, GBP
1.00 is deducted on entry at Moor Park and the Exit (in Zone 1) is
marked up as GBP 0.00. The systems seems to be assuming that I have
started the journey within my Travelcard zones and the pre-pay only
comes into play when I touch in/out outside the Travelcard validity.

So, for the Ilford - Liverpool Street journey, if it is all on Oyster,
the extension to Liverpool Street should be charged upon exiting, using
the travelcard validity as 'start' point. The Oystercard helpline have
confirmed that this is how the prepay works for extensions out of Zones
1-2, I'd assume that it works the same going in as well.

My head hurts!

There is a big difference between the two examples being discussed. The
Liv St - Ilford example is a composite journey where there is part
interavailability at LU fares and then the remaining part is at NR fares
/ validity.

Liv St - Stratford is LU fares / interavailable with the Central Line /
Oyster PAYG is valid.
Stratford - Ilford is NR fares / no interavailability / Oyster PAYG is
not valid.

There is no way that the gates at Ilford (yes there are some there) can
do anything to the PAYG part of an Oyster card. It can only process
Travelcard / OAP / Blind / Disabled validity in Oyster format.

On ALL gates the gate will always read and write to the card or the
magnetic ticket if it is valid. Invalid tickets or cards or not written
to. While the gate at Ilford can write to the Oyster card to say "Entry
at Ilford" or "Exit at Ilford" it cannot make a deduction or add back to
PAYG value because that product is not valid at that location. At
Liverpool Street the gates will only ever expect to see a LU or DLR
origin (if someone has changed at Stratford to the main line to Liv St),
Stratford or Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale or Walthamstow Central
(given the PAYG validity that works there). I do not know if the
validators at the above places have a special code for PAYG or whether
they use the standard designation that is normally encoded as the
origin.

On the LU station to Moor Park example the crucial difference is that
this is a journey wholly and completely at LU fares with LU Oyster and
PAYG functionality at the start and end of the trip. Therefore the
system can apply the rules successfully as you have experienced.

You are correct in that if you use part PAYG and part Travelcard
validity on your Oyster card for a journey that depending on where you
start and end then you may only value deducted on exit (when out of
zone) or deduction on entry (entering out of zone) and possibly added
back when exiting (inside travelcard validity) or further deducted if
you have travelled across London and gone back outside your Travelcard
validity.

Hopefully that is partly (!) answers this mini debate. On ASDF's
question I think Mizter T is right but I can fully understand why there
is confusion about needing to leap off, validate, leap on again at
Stratford.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Andy wrote:
The only way I can see to test things off peak is to make a journey to
Zone A-D and see what the prepay deducts on the start of the return
journey (is it the minimum GBP1.00, or GBP1.30 (Zone A -3), 1.70(Zone B
- 3) or 2.00(Zone C or D - 3) to get me back to Zone2)

That is an interesting question actually, and one that I don't know the
answer to for now. I do however expect pre-pay users to be charged a
full £5.50 on entry to the system at Amersham, as this is the full D-1
single far on Oyster. Of course, currently it deducts £1.00 on entry
and the remainder on exit.

The problem with these new ideas is that the station staff are often
the last to know, and until we start to see patterns occurring, we can
only go by what we've been told.

Paul Corfield wrote:
Sorry but you have this the wrong way round.

Aye you're right, I did get it the wrong way round - we have the
electric gates up our way, and I was thinking of one and writing of the
other... dum de dum. Plus I'm on ATOR so I haven't seen a gate in a
week - its easy to forget these things

Thanks for clarifying what was, admittedly, a rather crap post by
myself.

On 19 Oct 2006 12:13:24 -0700, "Andy" wrote:


wrote:
Andy wrote:
I believe that the current system
makes any Travelcard validity override the need to touch in, this may
change with the GBP4.00 charge being introduced.


What has happened for you is, as you have a 1-2 season ticket, you have
paid a 3-6 single, which is the maximum fare for any journey you could
possibly make (except north of moor park), which is in effect the same
as the £4 penalty for pre-pay users with no season ticket. Bear in
mind though that if you touch in but fail to touch out, lets say in
zone 3, with a 1-2 travel card, you'll likely be charged for the full
3-6 single rather than zone 3 only.

Yes, but I havn't paid anything until I touch out, unlike with PAYG. I
find the example of zone 3 a little confusing, if you are saying that
if I touch in Zone 3 and don't touch out, I'm likely to be charged for
a zone 3-6 single, then I'm not actually certain if this is the case, I
still think (but am not sure) that I might be charged for a zone 3-3
single with the system then assuming the travelcard is used to
complete. Of course, off-peak there is no difference in the two fares
and so making the comparison is impossible.
The only way I can see to test things off peak is to make a journey to
Zone A-D and see what the prepay deducts on the start of the return
journey (is it the minimum GBP1.00, or GBP1.30 (Zone A -3), 1.70(Zone B
- 3) or 2.00(Zone C or D - 3) to get me back to Zone2)

It will deduct £1 which is the deduction on entry that applies for all
journeys starting outside of Zone 1. This does not change with the new
rules if you are a Travelcard holder and using PAYG as an extension.
Any further deduction that may be required to pay for the full value of
your extension would be deducted on exit as this is the only point where
the full money due can be calculated given reference to your entry
point, your travelcard zonal validity, any PAYG deduction already made
and the remaining PAYG balance on the card.

Passengers using PAYG for their entire trip are subject to different
rules post 19/11/06. When I get round to doing my explanatory post
I'll cover the differences.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 18 Oct 2006 11:11:22 -0700, wrote:

First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum balance
on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly lacking in
proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move somewhat
unlikely.

Again been sitting here bored and found some more info on this. The
current Fares and Tickets leaflet clearly states what changes are
coming and can be found here
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Specifically on pages 2 and 3 - "Failure to touch in and out correctly
will result in a penalty fare."

Could this not just be referring to normal penalty fares? (Which are
£20.)

AND "when you touch in at the start of your journey a charge of up to
£5 will be deducted from your balance. When you touch out at the end
of your journey the charge will be adjusted so that you only pay the
correct Oyster single fare for your journey. If you fail to touch in
and touch out the charge will be applied to your card and the journey
will not count towards your daily cap." Hence the £5 minimum top up.

This is probably referring to the £5 deducted when you touch in at the
NR gatelines at Marylebone, Euston, Liverpool Street, and Fenchurch
Street. This has been in place for around a year.

On 18 Oct 2006 15:37:59 -0700, wrote:

Surely that is what the £3 deposit is supposed to cover?

If there's a £5 credit minimum, that effectively increases the deposit
from £3 to £8. I can't see any possible justification for this. I bet
someone at TfL has calculated £5 x (number of PAYG cards issued) and
started rubbing their hands.

Hey there's a little cynic in all of us

It was always my understanding that the £3 deposit was to discourage
people from throwing away their Oysters when they ran out, because a
lot of people at least initially assumed it was a (disposable)
replacement for paper tickets, rather than "refillable" as it is.
Consider though that the Oyster card system has always said it will
charge the maximum possible fare for incomplete journeys, and up to now
it hasn't, this has been a long time coming.

As of Jan 07, the paper fare for any journey including zone 1 (yes this
means zone 1 only right up to zones 1-6 single) will be £4, and I
would imagine this is where the figure has been decided. There's a big
move currently on Oyster fraud, and unfortunately its impossible to
discriminate against those that deliberately defraud the system, and
those who innocently don't touch their card for whatever reason.

Same old thing we see everywhere - the minority spoiling it for the
majority.

OK, but you're talking about the £4 charge - none of these are reasons
to have a £5 minimum balance.

I'm going to take a break from the hardcore Oyster systems discussion
that's happening elsewhere on this thread to deal with these less
brain-busting issues!


asdf wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 11:11:22 -0700, wrote:

First time I've ever heard that - are you sure? A £5 minimum balance
on an Oyster card would be very unpopular (and possibly lacking in
proper legal backing) - which is why I find such a move somewhat
unlikely.

Again been sitting here bored and found some more info on this. The
current Fares and Tickets leaflet clearly states what changes are
coming and can be found here
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Specifically on pages 2 and 3 - "Failure to touch in and out correctly
will result in a penalty fare."

Could this not just be referring to normal penalty fares? (Which are
£20.)

I agree - it's referring to the normal £20 penalty fare. I've seen
people getting done at KXSP - the RPIs were on the exit side of the
gates and were only interested in checking people who were using
Oysters. They were busting (i.e. issuing PFs) those who'd failed to
touch-in at the start of their journey. Now of course if you do this
you'll bust yourself - though to the lesser tune of the £4 'maximum
fare' that's applied to incompleted (i.e. unresolved) journeys. However
I think it'll certainly put a stop this kind of quasi-fare evasion -
it's what it's designed to do after all.


AND "when you touch in at the start of your journey a charge of up to
£5 will be deducted from your balance. When you touch out at the end
of your journey the charge will be adjusted so that you only pay the
correct Oyster single fare for your journey. If you fail to touch in
and touch out the charge will be applied to your card and the journey
will not count towards your daily cap." Hence the £5 minimum top up.

This is probably referring to the £5 deducted when you touch in at the
NR gatelines at Marylebone, Euston, Liverpool Street, and Fenchurch
Street. This has been in place for around a year.

This wording is new to the September 2006 Fares booklet - to my eyes it
appears to cover both the already implemented £5 charge for
incompleted (i.e. unresolved) journeys that involve passing through
gatelines at NR termini *and* the new £4 charge that will be applied
across the rest of the network from November 19.