On 24 Oct 2006 17:38:01 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!

From your examples, I'd guess that any journey under 2 miles that
crosses the Z1/2 boundary is charged at the Z1 fare.

asdf wrote:

On 24 Oct 2006 16:55:19 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Older versions of the NR National Fares Manual used to call them
"substandard fares", and included a table of all the ones that existed
from NR/LU interchange stations, but there's no mention of them in the
latest edition - not even the ones crossing the Z1 boundary.

If they're only available on Oyster PAYG now then there'll be no need
to list them in the NR NFM, as this lists cash fares - and 'short
journey'/substandard fares are not to my knowledge available as cash
fares anymore.


Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!

The ones outside Z1 aren't needed any more; they haven't been ever
since the two-zone fare became the same as the one-zone fare.
(Though actually, I believe they disappeared *before* that change.)

I wonder if anyone can sketch out a timeline here - I think 'short
journey' fares outside zone 1 only ever existed as cash fares and were
done away with before the introduction of Oyster PAYG, perhaps in an
attempt to 'wean' people off the expectation of lesser cash fares for
'short journeys'.


The only ones that would still have a reason to exist would be the
ones crossing the Z1/Z2 boundary - and apparently they still do,
despite not having appeared in any recent publicity that I remember
seeing. I think it's too much of a coincidence to be a mistake.

I agree, my initial conclusion that they were a mistake would seem to
be wrong. It's weird that TfL don't seem to offer any publicity about
their existence - I guess they might appear on those large fares table
posters that are displayed near ticket machines/ticket offices which
list the fares to each LU station, though I wonder if they only list
cash fares. I'll take a look today.


The related "Tube only short distance season tickets" also seem to
have quietly disappeared off the face of the Earth. (These became
unnecessary with the abolition of the single-zone Travelcard.)

The existence and subsequent disappearance of Tube-only short distance
season tickets is on my list of questions to put to the oracles of utl!
Did they disappear when the fares changed in January 2006 when the
single-zone season Travelcard became no more?

On 24 Oct 2006 17:38:01 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!

These fares have existed for years - there is no great surprise as they
are a reasonable way of avoiding people being charged excessive fares
for short distance cross boundary trips. There is (was) a famous 3 zone
one on the West Ruislip branch - err let's see Northolt - Hanger Lane I
think which was charged as 2 zones. Given the current fares it doesn't
apply any more.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Mizter T wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".
Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas

Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!


Err, on further investigation I'm increasingly proving myself wrong!
That is, if this fare finder is telling the truth...
(All examples below are peak PAYG fares as quoted the single fare
finder.)

Every journey between stations bounded by West Brompton, West Ken,
South Ken and High Street Ken (Barbie's 'chav' boyfriend who hangs
around outside McDonald's on the High Street on saturdays) apparently
costs £1.50 despite the fact that many cross the zonal frontier.

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!

I also used to do a Holland Park to/from Gloucester Road journey at the
short fare charge, and Gloucester Road to Fulham Broadway and High St
Ken to Fulham Bdy are also both short-hop fares.

My original guess was that you were allowed two stops inside one zone
and one stop inside another, but that doesn't always work - as someone
else, said, it might be distance-based. I'll see if I find the reasoning
at work tomorrow.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".
Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas

Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!


Err, on further investigation I'm increasingly proving myself wrong!
That is, if this fare finder is telling the truth...
(All examples below are peak PAYG fares as quoted the single fare
finder.)

Every journey between stations bounded by West Brompton, West Ken,
South Ken and High Street Ken (Barbie's 'chav' boyfriend who hangs
around outside McDonald's on the High Street on saturdays) apparently
costs £1.50 despite the fact that many cross the zonal frontier.

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!

I also used to do a Holland Park to/from Gloucester Road journey at the
short fare charge, and Gloucester Road to Fulham Broadway and High St
Ken to Fulham Bdy are also both short-hop fares.

My original guess was that you were allowed two stops inside one zone
and one stop inside another, but that doesn't always work - as someone
else, said, it might be distance-based. I'll see if I find the reasoning
at work tomorrow.

--
Dave Arquati


Dave, you do realise what you're letting yourself in for by saying
things such as that, it's practically begging for trouble! Before you
know it you'll be regarded as a conduit between the mysterious
other-world of Windsor House and this rabble-rousing group, our guide
to the realm through the looking glass ;-)

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:40:51 -0700, in uk.transport.london you wrote:

Just noticed that TfL has launched a new facility on the fares section
of their website - a "Single fare finder".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

You input your start and finish station - the fares finder is replete
with a javascript auto-complete function - then select adult or child
and and click on "Show fares".
Interesting, looking at the fares from stations such as West Brompton.

West Brompton - South Kensingtonis a Z1&2 journey, but is only
charged as a Z1 single - £1.50 (at all times).

However West Brompton - Sloane Square is also a Z1&2 journey but is
charged as the Z1&2 single - £2 (peak).

Presumably this is an example of the 'short journey' fares (or
whatever they are called) for stations near the Z1 boundary.

Nicholas

Most interesting. I was under the impression that 'short journey' fares
were a thing of the past, and wasn't aware that 'short journey' fares
were ever implemented on Oyster PAYG.

I'm not convinced that this isn't just a mistake in the database - but
I'm most willing to be proven wrong on that!

Err, on further investigation I'm increasingly proving myself wrong!
That is, if this fare finder is telling the truth...
(All examples below are peak PAYG fares as quoted the single fare
finder.)

Every journey between stations bounded by West Brompton, West Ken,
South Ken and High Street Ken (Barbie's 'chav' boyfriend who hangs
around outside McDonald's on the High Street on saturdays) apparently
costs £1.50 despite the fact that many cross the zonal frontier.

The following journeys also reputedly cost £1.50 despite the fact they
take in zones 1 and 2:

-----
Stockwell - Pimlico
Kennington - Charing Cross/Bank

Highbury & Islington - KXSP
Kentish Town/Chalk Farm - Warren Street

Bethnal Green - Bank
Stepney Green - Liverpool Street/Tower Hill

Swiss Cottage - Baker Street
Maida Vale - Baker Street
Kilburn Park - Edgware Road
-----

I could go on. But I won't. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to
provide the LU definition of a 'short journey' so we can all share in
the secret!
I also used to do a Holland Park to/from Gloucester Road journey at the
short fare charge, and Gloucester Road to Fulham Broadway and High St
Ken to Fulham Bdy are also both short-hop fares.

My original guess was that you were allowed two stops inside one zone
and one stop inside another, but that doesn't always work - as someone
else, said, it might be distance-based. I'll see if I find the reasoning
at work tomorrow.

Dave, you do realise what you're letting yourself in for by saying
things such as that, it's practically begging for trouble! Before you
know it you'll be regarded as a conduit between the mysterious
other-world of Windsor House and this rabble-rousing group, our guide
to the realm through the looking glass ;-)

You'll notice that I didn't commit myself to actually coming up with
anything - I only said that I'd see if I could find it, not that I
*would* find it. A useful skill I've learnt (see also, "We're going to
fund a study into Crossrail" != "We're going to build Crossrail").

Paul knows more about fares than I do anyway [points finger and runs].

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

(snip)

My original guess was that you were allowed two stops inside one zone
and one stop inside another, but that doesn't always work - as someone
else, said, it might be distance-based. I'll see if I find the reasoning
at work tomorrow.

Dave, you do realise what you're letting yourself in for by saying
things such as that, it's practically begging for trouble! Before you
know it you'll be regarded as a conduit between the mysterious
other-world of Windsor House and this rabble-rousing group, our guide
to the realm through the looking glass ;-)

You'll notice that I didn't commit myself to actually coming up with
anything - I only said that I'd see if I could find it, not that I
*would* find it. A useful skill I've learnt (see also, "We're going to
fund a study into Crossrail" != "We're going to build Crossrail").

Paul knows more about fares than I do anyway [points finger and runs].


Ha ha, I've got you running scared now! Being serious for a moment, I'm
certain I'm not the only one on this ng who appreciates the insider
viewpoint and the occasional morsel of authoritative information that
comes from the inside (my point is put incredibly clumsily as, apart
from anything else, I don't wish for a second to suggest anyone is
saying anything they shouldn't be saying - as they're obviously not).

Unfortunately for Paul Corfield I already have his card marked as the
fares guru, and there are many ticketing queries and mysteries I've yet
to bore him with!

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:00:00 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Dave, you do realise what you're letting yourself in for by saying
things such as that, it's practically begging for trouble! Before you
know it you'll be regarded as a conduit between the mysterious
other-world of Windsor House and this rabble-rousing group, our guide
to the realm through the looking glass ;-)

You'll notice that I didn't commit myself to actually coming up with
anything - I only said that I'd see if I could find it, not that I
*would* find it. A useful skill I've learnt (see also, "We're going to
fund a study into Crossrail" != "We're going to build Crossrail").

Someone was paying too much attention to the induction script then !?

Paul knows more about fares than I do anyway [points finger and runs].

Well Mr Arquati - that's your card well and truly marked ;-)
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 25 Oct 2006 16:38:32 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Unfortunately for Paul Corfield I already have his card marked as the
fares guru, and there are many ticketing queries and mysteries I've yet
to bore him with!

runs away
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:00:00 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Dave, you do realise what you're letting yourself in for by saying
things such as that, it's practically begging for trouble! Before you
know it you'll be regarded as a conduit between the mysterious
other-world of Windsor House and this rabble-rousing group, our guide
to the realm through the looking glass ;-)
You'll notice that I didn't commit myself to actually coming up with
anything - I only said that I'd see if I could find it, not that I
*would* find it. A useful skill I've learnt (see also, "We're going to
fund a study into Crossrail" != "We're going to build Crossrail").

Someone was paying too much attention to the induction script then !?

I've been well-informed about audit trails...

Paul knows more about fares than I do anyway [points finger and runs].

Well Mr Arquati - that's your card well and truly marked ;-)

Perhaps I'd better avoid applying for placements in LU then :-)

I got hold of the requisite information thanks to some helpful sources.
Whoever mentioned a journey distance of 2 miles was correct -
cross-boundary journeys of less than two (route) miles are charged at
the single-zone fare for the more expensive of the zones crossed. Fares
changes have essentially eliminated such a distinction in the outer
zones, so this little oddity now only applies to Zone 1-2 journeys. It
also turns out that a decision was made not to extend this system fully
to the extended Jubilee line, so whilst Bermondsey to London Bridge
qualifies as a short fare, no other JLE journeys do.

It's also worth mentioning that whilst there used to also be
cross-boundary point-to-point season tickets for these journeys, the
elimination of the Z1-only travelcard (at whose price the p-2-p journeys
were charged) in favour of a Z12 travelcard meant that the p2p tickets
were no longer necessary.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London