asdf wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:19:43 +0100, Phil Richards wrote:
In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same.

And what's particularly unfair is that a journey involving a Rail line
followed by a Tube line costs more than one involving a Rail line
followed by a Rail line, or a Tube line followed by a Tube line.

I completely agree.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Mizter T wrote:

A Train/Tube peak return isn't £11.20 as you state above but instead
costs even more - it's £13.20 !!!

I sit corrected

I wonder if the Train/Tube peak return prices quoted aren't in fact the
new Peak Day Travelcard prices for 2007?

Maybe. I strongly hope, however, that the CDR prices aren't the
planned new ODTC prices, as that's a hefty, and in my mind
inappropriate, increase. Unless, perhaps, the ODTC is to be abandoned
completely in favour of Pre-Pay?

Neil

Phil Richards wrote:

In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most
other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro
costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey.

Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a
decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly.

What we *ideally* want is a true Verbundtarif (joint tariff), where you
buy a public transport single, return or Travelcard and may use as many
or as few modes to complete your journey as necessary. To do anything
else is to penalise those who don't have a choice but to do so.
However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low
(especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so
perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would
work.

[1] I realise that this is, at least in part, a capacity management
issue that doesn't exist in most other countries.

Neil

Mizter T wrote:

Indeed Southern already use a zonal system for setting the fares on
their routes, and they have done since January 2005. However they
continue to issue tickets with on a named point-to-point basis. (See
the FarePal page on the Southern website for more info on this [2].)

Merseytravel, which I regard as one of the more forward-thinking PTEs,
issues all rail-only seasons on a zonal basis. Indeed, these are new
tickets, which mark a bit of a departure from the old principle of that
PTE of almost everything being cross-modal (there is, for example, no
bus-only day ticket, though there is a bus-only season).

Neil

Neil Williams wrote:
Phil Richards wrote:
In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most
other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro
costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey.

Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a
decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly.

Tube cash fares yes are silly and are getting sillier with the Jan 2007
changes. We all know the reasons behind that ;-)

However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low
(especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so
perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would
work.

IMO bus fares ought to be kept down below tube/rail simply because they
are generally slower and for many they are happy to put up with that in
return for cheaper travel costs.

Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this
country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to
change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses
would be a better solution.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Neil Williams wrote:

(snip)

I wonder if the Train/Tube peak return prices quoted aren't in fact the
new Peak Day Travelcard prices for 2007?

Maybe. I strongly hope, however, that the CDR prices aren't the
planned new ODTC prices, as that's a hefty, and in my mind
inappropriate, increase. Unless, perhaps, the ODTC is to be abandoned
completely in favour of Pre-Pay?


I'm certain the Train/Tube CDR prices quoted are _not_ the new off-peak
Day Travelcard prices. If they were there'd be a riot. And I'd be
leading it!

The Day Travelcard is not being abandoned in favour of Oyster PAYG
(Pre-Pay). The Travelcard is a legally protected fare - it can't just
vanish like that. I guess that when the whole NR network in London has
got round to accepting Oyster PAYG the in-boundary Day Travelcard might
be phased out - the logic being that capped Oyster PAYG would offer the
same functionality - but such a situation is still a long way off.

As asdf has pointed out elsewhere on this thread, perhaps said fares
exist merely so they can be issued in a discounted manner (with
railcard or staff priv) - nontheless it still seem right. To be honest
I'm not really clued up on priv fares, but as asdf rightly points out
the railcard-discounted Day Travelcard (currently at £4.80 - maybe
it'll cost 10 or 20p more next year) would still be the cheaper option
in almost all cases.

In my mind the mystery of these high Train/Tube fares remains.

wrote:

this seems to mean big fare rises for some:
e.g. Surbiton to Waterloo cheap day return: now £4.20,
zone 1-6 rail only CDR: £5.70


This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and
future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR)
fares between a number of stations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

Phil Richards wrote:

Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this
country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to
change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses
would be a better solution.

Agreed.

Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with
the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus
journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times
on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that
offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from
people doing that.

It would also be completely immune to fraud, unlike a single ticket
which could be passed on. As it's a disadvantage to have to tack a bus
journey onto the end of a Tube or rail journey, you could also either
heavily discount the bus fare if you touch in and out for a Tube or
rail journey 1/2 hours before or after the bus journey, or make it
completely free in such a situation.

[1] Actually, as singles are just 2- or 3-strip Strippenkaarten at an
inflated price, it applies to those as well, but the principle is
there.

[2] to prevent 'pass-back' fraud, i.e. the same Oyster being passed out
of the window to another pax and used again on the same bus.

Neil

embers25 wrote:

Will zonal rail tickets show origin/destination stations like they do at
present and therefore a return be A to B & back to A only? Or could I
buy a Zone 1 to 5 Rail only CDR say to go from Victoria to East Croydon
and later in the day Bromley South back to Victoria?

www.nationalrail.co.uk confirms that although zonal tickets will be
issued they will still be point to point and I quote "We are
considering whether in future we could make buying tickets in London
simpler still by offering tickets to specific zonal destinations.
However at present this is not practical." Surely it's easy to make
pratical if the tube can. Basically the system will simplify fares
without the zonal travel flexibility and so in the short term just
means fare raises of untold proportions for most people...a real "win"
for everyone! If this was a truly zonal system this would have been
great.


As I pointed out elsewhere I think the issue here is that if NR tickets
were issued on a zone-to-zone basis there'd be a subject to misuse. The
Underground by and large deals with this problem as most of it's
stations are gated, and the gates write information to the magnetic
strip on the ticket when you pass through them, plus once you've
completed your journey the gate at the end swallows your ticket on most
occasions (thought sometimes you it gives you back your ticket so as to
allow a permitted onward journey using that ticket - e.g. when changing
between the two Hammersmith stations). I'm pretty sure that this is the
thinking behind tickets continuing to have specified origin and
destination stations

Anyway once Oyster PAYG eventually launches on the whole NR network in
London then passengers using Oyster will have the full flexibility you
desire. This fare revision is a necessary step so as to iron out fares
inconsistencies before Oyster PAYG comes to NR. If Oyster PAYG was made
available on NR using zonal fares whilst NR could still price their
printed fares then it'd be a nightmare for passengers to work out what
would be the cheapest option - it'd be an inconsistent mess.

Also don't start propagating the myth that this means fare rises all
round, it doesn't - some fares will rise, some will fall. See this
comparison table for examples:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

Getting annoyed that 'your' fare will go up is fine. But extrapolating
from that the false conclusion that all fares have gone up is just
plain wrong.

AlsWith regards to this take a look at this footnote that was included
in the DfT press release:

-----
4. The prices for the new zonal peak singles and returns (and from
2010, seasons) will remain subject to the limits set by fares
regulation. As a result, London commuters will on average pay no more
using the new zonal fares than they would had current fares continued
an been increased as permitted by regulation. Operators will not make a
net gain from the change in these fares.
-----

Mizter T wrote:

The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR)
network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to
all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones
(that is zones 1 - 6).

(snip)

Full DfT press release via the Government News Network:
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656
or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v

My attempt to trim the length of the full URL of that DfT press release
by removing what I thought were extraneous strings on the end obviously
hasn't worked. For reference the full URL of the DfT press release on
the GNN is:

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...partment=False

The tinyurl I gave will however redirect to the full URL given above.

In addition the National Rail website now includes some information
about these fares changes:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html

And lastly this article on the BBC London website provides a comparison
table of before and after fares:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml