"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:

This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and
future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR)
fares between a number of stations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

I think some of these fares are just plain wrong: e.g. How is one supposed
to get from East Croydon to Harrow & Wealdstone on National Rail without
crossing Zone 2?

D A Stocks

Mizter T wrote:
wrote:

portions removed

It's too late for me to start working out elaborate examples. However I
think in many cases a passenger would encounter a set of gates on their
journey - say when changing from NR to the Undergound at termini - that
means this isn't actually as much of an issue as some think.


I have always been a bit too worried about being charged for two
journeys to encounter a set of gates on a journey using Oyster.

Can anyone confirm what I might be charged for the following (off-peak)
(all for travelling from London City Airport to Balham, say):

London City Airport to Bank by DLR, then Northern line to Balham - I
touch in at LCA and out at Balham without encountering any barriers -
off-peak this is £2.00

London City Airport to Tower Gateway by DLR, then Circle from Tower
Hill to Embankment and Northern Line to Balham - do I get charged two
fares - e.g. £2.00 for the DLR part touching out at Tower Gateway and
then a further £2.00 touching in at Tower Hill and out at Balham since
there is no way I can avoid the barriers at Tower Hill?

London City Airport to Canning Town by DLR, then Jubilee to Stratford,
Overground to Liverpool Street (interavailable with Oyster PAYG but ok,
you might not do this in practice), Central to Bank and Northern to
Balham - this way, you meet barriers at Stratford to exit the Jubilee
line, then barriers at Liverpool Street. Are you charged for three
journeys (Bank to Stratford, Stratford - Liverpool Street, Liverpool
Street - Balham)?

In all cases, does Oyster acknowledge that you are merely interchanging
or should you always avoid journeys with intermediate barriers? How
long would you be given to make these changes?

If Oyster does not take into account interchanges, then how would
Rail-Tube-Rail journeys be acknowledged as a single journey. This is
perhaps an argument why in time, travelcard type tickets will replace
all except the simplest single/return trips.

Thanks


Jonathan

"D A Stocks" writes:

I think some of these fares are just plain wrong: e.g. How is one supposed
to get from East Croydon to Harrow & Wealdstone on National Rail without
crossing Zone 2?

East Croydon - Redhill - Guildford - Ascot - Richmond - Willesden
Jn - Harrow & Wealdstone

Though this goes some way out of the zonal area.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:41:21 +0100, Graham Murray wrote:

I think some of these fares are just plain wrong: e.g. How is one supposed
to get from East Croydon to Harrow & Wealdstone on National Rail without
crossing Zone 2?

Looks like a typo of Z2-5. But the fares look right.

East Croydon - Redhill - Guildford - Ascot - Richmond - Willesden
Jn - Harrow & Wealdstone

Though this goes some way out of the zonal area.

And passes through Acton Central, which is in Zone 2.

Dave Plumb wrote:

When this smart ticketing system goes nationwide are they going to zone
everything then?

That's roughly how it works in the Netherlands.

That said, I understand that the new Dutch smartcard will change from
zones to distance-based fares with discounts for transfers.

Neil

D A Stocks wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

I think some of these fares are just plain wrong: e.g. How is one supposed
to get from East Croydon to Harrow & Wealdstone on National Rail without
crossing Zone 2?

I think the fare they've given is for a 5-2-5 journey ... if you
compare it with other fares, it seems in line with that. But you're
right, it's not clear from the chart that (i) it allows journeys
across intermediate zones (2,3,4), and (ii) it disallows journeys
across zone 1.

--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

On 23 Oct 2006 11:55:37 +0200, "D A Stocks"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:19:01 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:

Plus the scenario when the bus gets terminated short of the destination
advertised on the blinds on the front at the time you boarded! I know
drivers are supposed to issue a transfer ticket, but I'm not sure that
happens often in practice. So if using PAYG Oyster you lose out by
paying for a 2nd ride.

I was on a 24 on Thursday and got booted off at Trafalgar Square as the
route controller decided our bus was to turn at Westminster. There was
another bus behind running through but it was only when someone said "do
we have to pay again" that the controller instructed everyone from the
previous bus just to get on and not validate or pay. No transfer ticket
was issued that I could see. I think this aspect of PAYG "policy" needs
a little more explanation because a transfer may happen at a point where
there is no official to answer a question and the first bus may have
driven off.

When this happened to me (an 8 that terminated at Berkeley Sq.) I validated
on the next bus and wasn't charged. ISTR the validator displayed a weird
message - something about a travelcard, even though I *only* have PAYG on my
card.

You may have been lucky in that your running total for the day on PAYG
was capped at the ODTC less 50p value. Perhaps that is what was
displayed?

The normal rule is not to revalidate if on PAYG as you'll get charged
twice.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 22 Oct 2006 16:42:34 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Richard J. wrote:

wrote:
The cheap day return fares are completely pointless though as a
travelcard would be cheaper. So the actual price would be £4.90
for CJ-FP and £6.30 for Orp-WH.

Clapham Junction - Finsbury Park should really be £4.30 - a Z2-6
ODTC (CJ to Highbury and Islington - perhaps changing at Willesden
X, then Victoria Line)

According to the TfL Journey Planner:
Clapham Junction - Vauxhall, then Victoria Line to Finsbury Park: 31 -
37 minutes.
Clapham Junction - Willesden J.(or Richmond) - Highbury & Islington,
then Victoria Line to Finsbury Park: 57 - 83 minutes.

On that basis, the natural route is definitely via zone 1.

I agree.

If one wanted to go the West London Line - North London Line - Victoria
Line route avoiding zone 1 then the theoretical Train/Tube CDR would
cost £5.80, so the off-peak zones 2-6 Day Travelcard at £4.30 is what
one would actually buy.

What would be interesting is whether a plain-vanilla *single*
Train/Tube ticket could actually be issued for that same journey. The
single Train/Tube fare for zones 2&3 is £3.40 - could one actually buy
this for a journey to Finsbury Park from Clapham Junction? I guess it
would merely show "U23" as the destination - but would it be issued as
"route via Willesden Junction"? Would anyone of the ticket office staff
actually sell this ticket to a punter?

I doubt very much that the ticket would be issued to U23. One of the
main issues with this upcoming change is that it is still an station to
station ticket with a route - it is not issued to a zone and zonal
designations only apply to LU only destinations or travelcard tickets.

I once tried to purchase a priv single from West Brompton to Blackhorse
Road for a NR only journey via Willesden Junc / Gospel Oak. A slightly
insane way to make the trip but I really did not fancy the tube that
afternoon. The LU booking office was unable to issue beyond Willesden
Junction. I queried this with our fares people as I had anticipated that
the WLL service might have inspired a better range of bookings -
regrettably not. As I hate rebooking en route and hate Willesden
Junction in particular - the most convenient office is never open so you
miss your connections - I opted to go by tube that afternoon. It did
strike as odd to have TfL sponsored peak hour through trains from
Clapham Junction right round to Stratford but with no ability to buy a
ticket for such a service!

I doubt very much that the upcoming change to zonally based *prices*
will result in any great expansion of available routes. This will
probably mean the bias to route via Zone 1 on the basis of faster
journey time will remain with the resultant higher prices. If there was
to be a wholesale move to zonally based destinations and prices then
life becomes too complex too quickly. I expect the TOCs will wait to see
if the demand for particular routes increases and then they may
programme in those fare and destination combinations. TfL may also
introduce a wider range of bookings when the NLR concession starts but
they'd need at least a year to work it through.

As others have clearly identified routing is going to be a big issue for
Oyster and I cannot see how a policy of intermediate validation at
interchanges (if people had to change, of course) would work. I did use
the HK example of this where you had the chance to process your SV
ticket in a validator on the interchange corridor when changing from the
Island Line to the Eastern Harbour crossing - this added value to your
ticket so that when the higher fare (based on the cross harbour tunnel
route) was deducted you effectively got a discount. I don't believe
this facility lasted very long and has not been offered with Octopus
smartcards. Given the confusion in London about the most basic aspects
of PAYG the use of validation to identify what route you were taking
would probably be a step too far and also be open to abuse. Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 23 Oct 2006 04:39:58 -0700, wrote:


Mizter T wrote:
wrote:

portions removed

It's too late for me to start working out elaborate examples. However I
think in many cases a passenger would encounter a set of gates on their
journey - say when changing from NR to the Undergound at termini - that
means this isn't actually as much of an issue as some think.


I have always been a bit too worried about being charged for two
journeys to encounter a set of gates on a journey using Oyster.

Can anyone confirm what I might be charged for the following (off-peak)
(all for travelling from London City Airport to Balham, say):

London City Airport to Bank by DLR, then Northern line to Balham - I
touch in at LCA and out at Balham without encountering any barriers -
off-peak this is £2.00

London City Airport to Tower Gateway by DLR, then Circle from Tower
Hill to Embankment and Northern Line to Balham - do I get charged two
fares - e.g. £2.00 for the DLR part touching out at Tower Gateway and
then a further £2.00 touching in at Tower Hill and out at Balham since
there is no way I can avoid the barriers at Tower Hill?

London City Airport to Canning Town by DLR, then Jubilee to Stratford,
Overground to Liverpool Street (interavailable with Oyster PAYG but ok,
you might not do this in practice), Central to Bank and Northern to
Balham - this way, you meet barriers at Stratford to exit the Jubilee
line, then barriers at Liverpool Street. Are you charged for three
journeys (Bank to Stratford, Stratford - Liverpool Street, Liverpool
Street - Balham)?

In all cases, does Oyster acknowledge that you are merely interchanging
or should you always avoid journeys with intermediate barriers? How
long would you be given to make these changes?

In short, in all of the examples you quote you always remain on the LU
fare scale (due to DLR and NR / LU joint availability) so the
interchange gates will treat you on this basis. Money will be taken off
and added back on so that at final exit you will pay the fare from your
origin to your final destination.

There is a time limit for the interchange trips but I don't know what it
is these days.

If Oyster does not take into account interchanges, then how would
Rail-Tube-Rail journeys be acknowledged as a single journey. This is
perhaps an argument why in time, travelcard type tickets will replace
all except the simplest single/return trips.

It isn't a matter of only acknowledging interchanges - it is about
knowing the fare between origin and destination. Origin and destination
is what will be checked with maybe a sanity check that expected
interchanges have been travelled through as expected within a journey
time parameter. Please note that I am speculating as to the method of
working here - I have not seen anything on how London Wide PAYG on all
rail modes will work.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Stevie D wrote:
Anonymouse wrote:

snipp-ex

Did you not read the press release? Fares are not - on average -
increasing.

That depends how they calculate the average.

I can well believe that, if you write down all the different
combinations of fares before and after the change, and take the mean
or median difference, it will be close to zero.

I can equally well believe that most of the fares that they are
reducing are sold in very small numbers, and most of the fares that
they are increasing are sold in very large numbers - so the average
fare paid will be substantially higher under the new scheme.

The press release says that the TOCs will be no better or worse off
under the new system - which must mean the average fare remains the same.

(From the release: "[...] London commuters will on average pay no more
using the new zonal fares than they would had current fares continued an
been increased as permitted by regulation. Operators will not make a net
gain from the change in these fares.")

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London