In message , Paul Corfield
writes
It isn't a matter of only acknowledging interchanges - it is about
knowing the fare between origin and destination. Origin and destination
is what will be checked with maybe a sanity check that expected
interchanges have been travelled through as expected within a journey
time parameter.
oh national rail these sometimes fail a sanity check however

Please note that I am speculating as to the method of
working here - I have not seen anything on how London Wide PAYG on all
rail modes will work.
I'm curious as to whether Gold Card discounts on national rail
extensions to season tickets will be supported on Oyster. No technical
reason why they couldn't be (expect for fiscal expense of getting the
programming right).

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

D A Stocks wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:

This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and
future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR)
fares between a number of stations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

I think some of these fares are just plain wrong: e.g. How is one supposed
to get from East Croydon to Harrow & Wealdstone on National Rail without
crossing Zone 2?

The staff briefing that ATOC have produced is just as bad, I'm sad to
say, with various stations mentioned therein being rezoned!

Examples:

1. SDS from Orpington (Zone 6) to Nunhead (Zone 2) is the same price
as the SDS from Chingford (Zone 6) /sic/ to Cambridge Heath (Zone 2).

Erm...Last time I checked Chingford was in Zone *5*. If they wanted a
"one" station in Zone 6, they'd need Turkey Street or Enfield Lock.

2. CDR from Purley (Zone 6) to London Terminals (Zone 1) is the same
price as the CDR from Surbiton (Zone 6) to Woolwich Arsenal (Zone 3) via
Zone 1 and changing at Waterloo Main Line and Waterloo East.

3. SDR from East Croydon (Zone 5) to Mill Hill Broadway (Zone 3) /sic/
via Zone 1 and Thameslink /sic/, is the same price as the SDR from
Dagenham Dock (Zone 5) to London Terminals (Zone 1).

Two problems he First of all, Mill Hill Broadway is in Zone 4,
secondly Thameslink has been First Capital Connect since 1st April.

4. SDS from Hanwell (Zone 4) to New Cross Gate (Zone 2) is the same
price as the SDS from Oakleigh Park (Zone 4) to U1234, i.e. the higher
Train Tube Zonal Fare.

Cheers,

Barry

The press release says that the TOCs will be no better or worse off
under the new system - which must mean the average fare remains the same.

(From the release: "[...] London commuters will on average pay no more
using the new zonal fares than they would had current fares continued an
been increased as permitted by regulation. Operators will not make a net
gain from the change in these fares.")

I read that and felt the wording a little suspect and whether the
suggestion was any difference one way or the other would be funded by the
GLA.

If that were the case, the GLA would win either way, any shortfall funded
by the London council tax payer and any surplus spent on other stuff ...

D

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:35:21 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

As others have clearly identified routing is going to be a big issue for
Oyster and I cannot see how a policy of intermediate validation at
interchanges (if people had to change, of course) would work.

Indeed. I think the only workable policy will be the current one - a
fare is defined between each pair of stations, based on the zones
travelled through on the "most direct" route, and that's the fare you
pay, regardless of the route actually taken. (If there are two
similarly direct routes then the benefit of the doubt could be given
and the cheaper fare charged.) If you take a detour via Z1 without
having to pay extra for it, then good luck to you (as no break of
journey is permitted there's no advantage in taking circuitous
routes). If you think you deserve a cheaper journey because you
travelled halfway round London on the NLL, tough.

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!

Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:19:21 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

When this happened to me (an 8 that terminated at Berkeley Sq.) I validated
on the next bus and wasn't charged. ISTR the validator displayed a weird
message - something about a travelcard, even though I *only* have PAYG on my
card.

You may have been lucky in that your running total for the day on PAYG
was capped at the ODTC less 50p value. Perhaps that is what was
displayed?

The normal rule is not to revalidate if on PAYG as you'll get charged
twice.

It seems easily testable, given the right opportunity. On a day when
you're planning to use PAYG capping, but haven't reached the cap yet,
and you're on a bus, with another bus on the same route close behind,
simply get off the bus and board the one behind, and see if it charges
you another 80p or not.

If in future the occasion arises and I think of it, I'll give it a
try, though I have no idea when that will be.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:43:55 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

In all cases, does Oyster acknowledge that you are merely interchanging
or should you always avoid journeys with intermediate barriers? How
long would you be given to make these changes?

In short, in all of the examples you quote you always remain on the LU
fare scale (due to DLR and NR / LU joint availability) so the
interchange gates will treat you on this basis. Money will be taken off
and added back on so that at final exit you will pay the fare from your
origin to your final destination.

There is a time limit for the interchange trips but I don't know what it
is these days.

A year or two ago I managed 25 minutes between Baker Street and
Marylebone (walking between the stations and then waiting for my train
- you can't really go through the barriers at Marylebone until your
train is announced).

It would be sensible for it to vary according to location - at King's
Cross (as was) you would only have needed a few minutes, but at
Marylebone (in the Tube-to-NR direction) you might need much longer,
especially on Sundays when there's only 1tph. And if your train was
cancelled (or you missed it) and you decided to take the Tube instead,
would it charge you again when you re-entered the Tube?

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:22:57 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

3. SDR from East Croydon (Zone 5) to Mill Hill Broadway (Zone 3) /sic/
via Zone 1 and Thameslink /sic/, is the same price as the SDR from
Dagenham Dock (Zone 5) to London Terminals (Zone 1).

Two problems he First of all, Mill Hill Broadway is in Zone 4,
secondly Thameslink has been First Capital Connect since 1st April.

The company that runs the trains, but not the route. Otherwise we'd
have "City FCC" etc., as discussed ad nauseam...

In message , asdf
writes
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:35:21 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

As others have clearly identified routing is going to be a big issue for
Oyster and I cannot see how a policy of intermediate validation at
interchanges (if people had to change, of course) would work.

Indeed. I think the only workable policy will be the current one - a
fare is defined between each pair of stations, based on the zones
travelled through on the "most direct" route, and that's the fare you
pay, regardless of the route actually taken. (If there are two
similarly direct routes then the benefit of the doubt could be given
and the cheaper fare charged.) If you take a detour via Z1 without
having to pay extra for it, then good luck to you (as no break of
journey is permitted there's no advantage in taking circuitous
routes). If you think you deserve a cheaper journey because you
travelled halfway round London on the NLL, tough.

One of the major selling points of the ELL and NLL upgrades are that
they will reduce the amount of passengers travelling through Zone 1; if
passengers are unable to save money taking circuitous routes, will the
hypothetically more spacious journey be enough?

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!

Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I was on a 24 on Thursday and got booted off at Trafalgar Square as the
route controller decided our bus was to turn at Westminster. There was
another bus behind running through but it was only when someone said
"do we have to pay again" that the controller instructed everyone from
the previous bus just to get on and not validate or pay. No transfer
ticket was issued that I could see. I think this aspect of PAYG
"policy" needs a little more explanation because a transfer may happen
at a point where there is no official to answer a question and the
first bus may have driven off.

I was on a bus (oddly enough a 24) some months ago when this happened.
I queried it with the driver of the short turning bus and he issued me
with a transfer ticket, the only time I've ever seen one in London.

(Slightly off-topic but I was always perplexed as a child that Midland
Red transfer tickets were labelled "Not Transferable"!)

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Paul G wrote:

In message , asdf
writes
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:35:21 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

As others have clearly identified routing is going to be a big issue for
Oyster and I cannot see how a policy of intermediate validation at
interchanges (if people had to change, of course) would work.

Indeed. I think the only workable policy will be the current one - a
fare is defined between each pair of stations, based on the zones
travelled through on the "most direct" route, and that's the fare you
pay, regardless of the route actually taken. (If there are two
similarly direct routes then the benefit of the doubt could be given
and the cheaper fare charged.) If you take a detour via Z1 without
having to pay extra for it, then good luck to you (as no break of
journey is permitted there's no advantage in taking circuitous
routes). If you think you deserve a cheaper journey because you
travelled halfway round London on the NLL, tough.

One of the major selling points of the ELL and NLL upgrades are that
they will reduce the amount of passengers travelling through Zone 1; if
passengers are unable to save money taking circuitous routes, will the
hypothetically more spacious journey be enough?

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!

Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.


The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than at
present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on the
drawing board is a moot point!