this seems to mean big fare rises for some:
e.g. Surbiton to Waterloo cheap day return: now £4.20,
zone 1-6 rail only CDR: £5.70

I am very glad to hear they are keeping the single/return/CDR fairs for
overground journeys. It may seem silly to have two sets of fares but
why should I pay underground fares for overground journeys? I do not
get the same level of service (eg my trains start later in the morning,
finish earlier at night and are far less regular) so it seems
unreasonable for me to pay the same as someone who lives by a tube
station and gets all those benefits.

Happy!

wrote:
I am very glad to hear they are keeping the single/return/CDR fairs for
overground journeys. It may seem silly to have two sets of fares but
why should I pay underground fares for overground journeys? I do not
get the same level of service (eg my trains start later in the morning,
finish earlier at night and are far less regular) so it seems
unreasonable for me to pay the same as someone who lives by a tube
station and gets all those benefits.

In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most
other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro
costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey.

Just because rail might have a worse frequency than tube ought not to
mean cheaper fares. For instance, London buses have the same (flat) fare
for routes that operate once an hour during the day time to one that
runs every few minutes day and night.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:19:43 +0100, Phil Richards wrote:

I am very glad to hear they are keeping the single/return/CDR fairs for
overground journeys. It may seem silly to have two sets of fares but
why should I pay underground fares for overground journeys? I do not
get the same level of service (eg my trains start later in the morning,
finish earlier at night and are far less regular) so it seems
unreasonable for me to pay the same as someone who lives by a tube
station and gets all those benefits.

In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same.

And what's particularly unfair is that a journey involving a Rail line
followed by a Tube line costs more than one involving a Rail line
followed by a Rail line, or a Tube line followed by a Tube line.

asdf wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:19:43 +0100, Phil Richards wrote:
In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same.

And what's particularly unfair is that a journey involving a Rail line
followed by a Tube line costs more than one involving a Rail line
followed by a Rail line, or a Tube line followed by a Tube line.

I completely agree.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Phil Richards wrote:

In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most
other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro
costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey.

Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a
decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly.

What we *ideally* want is a true Verbundtarif (joint tariff), where you
buy a public transport single, return or Travelcard and may use as many
or as few modes to complete your journey as necessary. To do anything
else is to penalise those who don't have a choice but to do so.
However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low
(especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so
perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would
work.

[1] I realise that this is, at least in part, a capacity management
issue that doesn't exist in most other countries.

Neil

Neil Williams wrote:
Phil Richards wrote:
In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most
other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro
costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey.

Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a
decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly.

Tube cash fares yes are silly and are getting sillier with the Jan 2007
changes. We all know the reasons behind that ;-)

However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low
(especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so
perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would
work.

IMO bus fares ought to be kept down below tube/rail simply because they
are generally slower and for many they are happy to put up with that in
return for cheaper travel costs.

Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this
country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to
change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses
would be a better solution.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Phil Richards wrote:

Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this
country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to
change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses
would be a better solution.

Agreed.

Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with
the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus
journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times
on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that
offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from
people doing that.

It would also be completely immune to fraud, unlike a single ticket
which could be passed on. As it's a disadvantage to have to tack a bus
journey onto the end of a Tube or rail journey, you could also either
heavily discount the bus fare if you touch in and out for a Tube or
rail journey 1/2 hours before or after the bus journey, or make it
completely free in such a situation.

[1] Actually, as singles are just 2- or 3-strip Strippenkaarten at an
inflated price, it applies to those as well, but the principle is
there.

[2] to prevent 'pass-back' fraud, i.e. the same Oyster being passed out
of the window to another pax and used again on the same bus.

Neil

Neil Williams wrote:

Phil Richards wrote:

Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this
country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to
change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses
would be a better solution.

Agreed.

Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with
the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus
journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times
on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that
offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from
people doing that.

It would also be completely immune to fraud, unlike a single ticket
which could be passed on. As it's a disadvantage to have to tack a bus
journey onto the end of a Tube or rail journey, you could also either
heavily discount the bus fare if you touch in and out for a Tube or
rail journey 1/2 hours before or after the bus journey, or make it
completely free in such a situation.

[1] Actually, as singles are just 2- or 3-strip Strippenkaarten at an
inflated price, it applies to those as well, but the principle is
there.

[2] to prevent 'pass-back' fraud, i.e. the same Oyster being passed out
of the window to another pax and used again on the same bus.


You don't need to worry about 'pass back' fraud with Oyster - any
Oyster card can only be validated _once_ on any one bus. If you try and
do it again you get an error with a double-beep noise. This is also the
case on bendy buses - once you've touched-in on one reader you can't
then touch-in on any of the others so you can't accidentally pay twice.

(I guess it might be helpful for people who're unsure if they'd
successfully touched in or not if there was some different error noise
that signified 'this card has already been validated on this bus', but
that however is a somewhat different issue).

Neil Williams wrote:

Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with
the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus
journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times
on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that
offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from
people doing that.

Plus the scenario when the bus gets terminated short of the destination
advertised on the blinds on the front at the time you boarded! I know
drivers are supposed to issue a transfer ticket, but I'm not sure that
happens often in practice. So if using PAYG Oyster you loose out by
paying for a 2nd ride.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk