On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston,

Ack! I've already had to pull one person up this week who should have
known better - they're a graduate of the University of Durham, not
Durham University!

One i was never able to work out was whether it's the University of Oxford
or Oxford University; its official organs seem to use the terms
interchangeably.

Having looked it up, i think the *official* name is The Chancellor,
Masters and Scholars of the University of Oxford. Snappy!

tom

--
3364147 Complete space vehicles (excluding propulsion systems)

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave Arquati wrote:

brixtonite wrote:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route.

I have a bad feeling about this. Priority is all very well on paper, but
it doesn't buy you a lot when there are buses ten deep in front of you.

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

The original plan was to have the King's Cross branch running through
Somers Town via Brill Place, which would have been a quick route with
minimal traffic disruption - but the local residents were strongly
against it and so the Mornington Crescent branch was born.

Hmph.

Another option considered early on but discarded (not sure why) was from
Tavistock Square via Tavistock Place and Judd Street into Midland Road.

This sounds far more sensible.

Incidentally, the Mornington Crescent route is not finalised - LB Camden
would still like to see it routed along Euston Road as this is more
direct, but the practicalities are difficult - although bus lanes
already exist along that bit of road, the bus frequency is quite high
(seven routes including the very-high-frequency 73) and I'm not sure
that those lanes have the capacity to reliably carry 15tph plus some
30-40bph (at a guess).

Presumably, some of those routes could be sacrificed in favour of the tram
- the 91 duplicates the tram route, for example; the 476 could perhaps be
cut back to King's Cross, and the 390 might be able to go round the back,
via Midland Road and Goods Way.

tom

--
3364147 Complete space vehicles (excluding propulsion systems)

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Dave Newt wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston

That'll be the, um, University of London
http://www.london.ac.uk/contact.html ...

What, all the way from Montague Place to Gower Place? I should think the
denizens of Birkbeck, SOAS, RADA and UCL would have something to say
about that ...

Well, since Birkbeck, SOAS and UCL (not RADA, which is the other side of
the road anyway) are all constituent colleges of the University of
London, I think they probably agree.

Dave Newt wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Dave Newt wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston

That'll be the, um, University of London
http://www.london.ac.uk/contact.html ...

What, all the way from Montague Place to Gower Place? I should think
the denizens of Birkbeck, SOAS, RADA and UCL would have something to
say about that ...

Well, since Birkbeck, SOAS and UCL (not RADA, which is the other side of
the road anyway) are all constituent colleges of the University of
London, I think they probably agree.

Even RADA jointly awards a Master's degree with a college of the
University of London (though it's not a part of the University of London
system per se). I know. I've got one.

Though yes, the way that map is marked is less that completely accurate
- my first thought when I looked at it was that UCL must somehow have
tripled in size overnight, and been renamed.

--

Stephen

Lorelai: Do you have any Lucille Balls left?
Kirk: Yes, I have some Balls.

Stephen Farrow wrote:
Dave Newt wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Dave Newt wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston

That'll be the, um, University of London
http://www.london.ac.uk/contact.html ...

What, all the way from Montague Place to Gower Place? I should think
the denizens of Birkbeck, SOAS, RADA and UCL would have something to
say about that ...

Well, since Birkbeck, SOAS and UCL (not RADA, which is the other side of
the road anyway) are all constituent colleges of the University of
London, I think they probably agree.

Even RADA jointly awards a Master's degree with a college of the
University of London (though it's not a part of the University of London
system per se). I know. I've got one.

Though yes, the way that map is marked is less that completely accurate
- my first thought when I looked at it was that UCL must somehow have
tripled in size overnight, and been renamed.


I was about to say - it doesn't matter really, does it, it's only a
preliminary map and I'm sure when the system eventually gets built the
associated maps and tram stop names will have been thought about
carefully.

What I'll say instead - I think it should stay as "London University"
just to wind people up!

Perhaps the eventual stop there will just be ambiguously called
"University", like the similarly ambiguous "University" stations or
tram stops in Sheffield, Birmingham or on the Tyne & Wear Metro
extension. That might wind people up even more.

Of course if you really want your nearest station (or tram stop) to
called what you want you need to follow the example of Arsenal Football
Club in getting Gillespie Road renamed Arsenal. However, copying their
lobbying technique might be difficult - whilst the official history is
that the Arsenal manager Herbert Chapman successfully led a campaign to
get the stations name changed, I think the real way it was done - nudge
nudge wink wink deals in smoky rooms behind closed doors etc - was
never recorded for posterity. Plus I don't think the board of TfL is
perhaps as pliable as the Underground (UERL) board of 1932. That said,
Ampere Way tramstop on the Croydon Tramlink is now IKEA Ampere Way. Has
Peter Hendy's house suddenly has an influx of new furniture and is his
fridge now full of Swedish meatballs - I think we should be told...

Dave Arquati wrote:
brixtonite wrote:
I wonder:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route. I don't think
that any section will be shared-use with general traffic at all (much of
it uses existing bus priority routes).

So what are the buses going to do? Or will the tram track be able to
be shared by the buses? Woburn Place & Southampton Row are already
snarled with bus & car traffic; putting a tram in there without taking
cars out is going to be interesting...

Patrick

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Earl Purple wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Push all the traffic off the A4200?

Yes, i imagine so. Where will it go?

Depends on where they are going. A400 (Gower Street / Tottenham Court
Road) or A5200 (Grays Inn Road) are the obvious alternatives except for
local access. I don't know what will happen exactly with Russell
Square.

Ah, of course. And there was me thinking that Bernard Street, Judd Street,
Midland Road and Euston Road were roads too. How foolish of me!

Midland Road isn't a through road anymore. Hasn't been for a long time.
And if you take out Bernard Street / Guildford Street then traffic from
Russell Square will have nowhere to go / no point of access if they are
going to cross the tram route. (I guess you could close off Russell
Square at its entry and use Bedford Place for access. Of course traffic
would be allowed to turn right out of Bedford Place into the closed off
section).

And why does it follow the A23?

Seems to make sense that if you want to put a route from Waterloo to
Brixton and there's a numbered A road that covers both points that you
might use it.

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston,

Ack! I've already had to pull one person up this week who should have
known better - they're a graduate of the University of Durham, not Durham
University!

One i was never able to work out was whether it's the University of Oxford
or Oxford University; its official organs seem to use the terms
interchangeably.

Having looked it up, i think the *official* name is The Chancellor,
Masters and Scholars of the University of Oxford. Snappy!

The current logo says "University of Oxford" and the frontpage of the
website seems pretty clear, although some other pages aren't. The crest also
uses "University of Oxford".

The Wikipedia articles on UK universities are nearly all listed at the
current "brand name", rather than what the statutes et al use, so if there's
doubt look there.

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave Arquati wrote:

brixtonite wrote:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do
this without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route.

I have a bad feeling about this. Priority is all very well on paper, but
it doesn't buy you a lot when there are buses ten deep in front of you.

A problem in Manchester certainly... luckily there's a bit more control
available here. Croydon has buses stopping offline when there's a bus
and tram lane; something similar may be possible along the tram routes.
And, as you mentioned lower down, some routes will be curtailed or
diverted because they would otherwise replicate the tram. In fact,
looking at Kingsway, the majority of routes running along there would be
candidates for alteration.

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

The original plan was to have the King's Cross branch running through
Somers Town via Brill Place, which would have been a quick route with
minimal traffic disruption - but the local residents were strongly
against it and so the Mornington Crescent branch was born.

Hmph.

Another option considered early on but discarded (not sure why) was
from Tavistock Square via Tavistock Place and Judd Street into Midland
Road.

This sounds far more sensible.

As a matter of fact, some of the route options will be opened to
consultation next month, so we'll see what the CRT team are offering!

Incidentally, the Mornington Crescent route is not finalised - LB
Camden would still like to see it routed along Euston Road as this is
more direct, but the practicalities are difficult - although bus lanes
already exist along that bit of road, the bus frequency is quite high
(seven routes including the very-high-frequency 73) and I'm not sure
that those lanes have the capacity to reliably carry 15tph plus some
30-40bph (at a guess).

Presumably, some of those routes could be sacrificed in favour of the
tram - the 91 duplicates the tram route, for example; the 476 could
perhaps be cut back to King's Cross, and the 390 might be able to go
round the back, via Midland Road and Goods Way.

tom



--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
brixtonite wrote:
I wonder:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?
Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route. I don't think
that any section will be shared-use with general traffic at all (much of
it uses existing bus priority routes).

So what are the buses going to do? Or will the tram track be able to
be shared by the buses? Woburn Place & Southampton Row are already
snarled with bus & car traffic; putting a tram in there without taking
cars out is going to be interesting...

I imagine that most of the route will consist of bus + tram lanes. The
bus routes on Woburn Place and Southampton Row all replicate big
portions of the tram route (59 from Euston to Brixton, 68 from Euston to
Elephant, 91 from Euston to Aldwych, 168 from Camden to Elephant) and I
imagine most - if not all - will be diverted or curtailed. In fact, the
59 could probably be withdrawn, as there are many other bus routes
covering the remaining portion to Telford Avenue (and if CRT is
successful, it may well be extended to Streatham anyway).

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London