On Wed, 25 Oct 2006, Boltar wrote:

Earl Purple wrote:

Boltar wrote:

This morning I saw a black cab do a u-turn on a busy 4 lane road. And
not for the first time.

Taxis are allowed to stop in red routes to pick up a fare. Obviously

So a red route is No Stopping At Any Time (unless you're a cabbie and
then its no problem , block the traffic for as long as you like mate)?
So what makes cabbies exempt? Plenty of other people have to drive in
london for a living. Why shouldn't we permit delivery drivers, couriers
and so forth to stop too?

The lorry drivers delivering to shops along the Seven Sisters Road just
west of Finsbury Park are one step ahead of you - they already do!

tom

--
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor

"Mike Hughes" wrote in message
...
In message .com, Boltar
writes

John Rowland wrote:

Boltar wrote:
Most London roads do not have u-turn bans. Which road was it?

Farringdon road (or whatever its called) down near Blackfriars.

So what makes cabbies exempt?

The law. That's the whole reason red routes were invented, as distinct
from
Clearways (where not even taxis can stop).

I still don't see why taxis are a special case. Taxis are a virtual
irrelevance
when it comes to a list of relative importance of vehicles on the road
since there is always the public transport alternative.

WRONG. Trains, buses, planes, ships all stop at some time or other either
through breakdown, planned maintenance, no late night service or a variety
of other services. That's when the taxis fill in the gaps.

Indeed, London transport couldn't get their staff in and out of work when
the tubes are shut without taxis, many local authorities wouldn't be able
to get their disabled residents to and from hospital, etc. without having
to provide expensive alternatives to taxis which are available 24/7

Shops and
businesses
HAVE to have deliveries,

Agreed, but they can have them outside the 'rush' hours.

people do not have to travel by cab unless
they're
going way out into the sticks (and then the cabbie probably wouldn't
accept the fare anyway) where there might not be public transport.

Because those deliveries would take MUCH longer than the 5-100 seconds
that

Not necessarily. Depends what it is. If its just a parcel in might only
take a minute
if they've phoned ahead and someone is waiting to collect.
--------------------------------------------------------
Why don't Transport for London introduce a system whereby taxis & minicabs
are employed by them & are paid a regular wage just like bus & train
drivers,it would reduce pollution immensely because one cab could be used by
three drivers on a 24 hour shift rota,it would also mean no lack of cabs
late at night,just one thing though because there is no glass partition in
minicabs as in black cabs,I do find many minicab drivers appear to have a
problem with personal hygiene it would be a bonus if their job description
included brushing their teeth & taking a shower now & again.

Mike Hughes wrote:
Indeed, London transport couldn't get their staff in and out of work
when the tubes are shut without taxis,

Most of these journeys could be cycled, on quiet night-time roads.

many local authorities wouldn't be able to get their disabled
residents to and from hospital, etc. without having to provide
expensive alternatives to taxis which are available 24/7

But not these.

FWIW, my theory is that most drivers drive so as not to inconvenience
other drivers any more than necessary. A minority drive so as not to
inconvenience other road users any more than necessary. Many taxi
drivers drive so as not to collide with other road users - but
delaying them and getting too close are OK.


Colin McKenzie


--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

Zara Henderson wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------
Why don't Transport for London introduce a system whereby taxis & minicabs
are employed by them & are paid a regular wage just like bus & train
drivers,

Then Tfl would keep the fares other than what they pay to the drivers.
That might actually be slightly advantageous for the drivers, provided
they get paid enough, but chances are they wouldn't be.

Tfl would then have a complete monopoly so would obviously minimise
their costs, not only by paying the drivers as little as they can get
away with, but would also employ as few drivers as they think they can
get away with, because every driver is efectively an expense.
(The advantage to the drivers is that they don't expand their fleet so
much that the drivers get very little work).

it would reduce pollution immensely because one cab could be used by
three drivers on a 24 hour shift rota,

How does that reduce pollution? Cabs aren't polluting anything when
they are parked up, unlike what Richmond Council seem to think.

it would also mean no lack of cabs late at night

No, for the reasons above there is more likely to be a lack of cabs. If
it's hard to get a cab at night, it's because of the inefficient use of
them at the moment. Plus the fact that just as with all other forms of
transport, there is a "rush hour" for cabs, and at night that tends to
be just around midnight.

My suggestion is to keep the drivers as self-employed like they are now
but have them work under a global system. The "operators" can still be
there to take calls and find work, and these operators would receive a
percentage of the fares based on the jobs they find, but the drivers
would work under Tfl, not under the operators. Black cabs will also be
allowed to ply for hire on the street, and keep 100% of any such fares.


A solution that could resolve the evening rush-hour problem would be
shared-cabs (find others going to the same location). Could benefit
everyone - lower fares for the passengers, higher fares for the driver
and more cabs available.

,just one thing though because there is no glass partition in
minicabs as in black cabs,I do find many minicab drivers appear to have a
problem with personal hygiene it would be a bonus if their job description
included brushing their teeth & taking a shower now & again.

What probably comes from being overworked and even sleeping in their
cars. And in the summer time, waiting for jobs in the car is not
pleasant. Actually, it never is, but particularly bad in summer or very
cold winter.

Colin McKenzie wrote:

Most of these journeys could be cycled, on quiet night-time roads.

I very much doubt that late night workers are going to get home 2-3
miles say on a bicycle in the middle of the night. A better night-bus
network might have been the alternative suggestion.

FWIW, my theory is that most drivers drive so as not to inconvenience
other drivers any more than necessary. A minority drive so as not to
inconvenience other road users any more than necessary. Many taxi
drivers drive so as not to collide with other road users - but
delaying them and getting too close are OK.

You probably have a point that I think many road users are more
sympathetic to other road users that are driving/riding the same kind
of vehicle as they are (and pedestrians to other pedestrians).

I disagree with your point about taxis though. They have a job to do
and that job involves stopping to provide a pretty much door-to-door
service, which means picking up and setting down passengers where they
want to go (which I only really object to when it is at a set of green
traffic lights, but I guess it's the fault of the passengers who jump
in the taxi at that point). It can also happen quite often that a
passenger will jump in on the wrong side of the road to where they want
to go, forcing the driver to U-turn. You can't really blame the taxi
drivers for that.

"Earl Purple" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zara Henderson wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------
Why don't Transport for London introduce a system whereby taxis &
minicabs
are employed by them & are paid a regular wage just like bus & train
drivers,

Then Tfl would keep the fares other than what they pay to the drivers.
That might actually be slightly advantageous for the drivers, provided
they get paid enough, but chances are they wouldn't be.

Tfl would then have a complete monopoly so would obviously minimise
their costs, not only by paying the drivers as little as they can get
away with, but would also employ as few drivers as they think they can
get away with, because every driver is efectively an expense.
(The advantage to the drivers is that they don't expand their fleet so
much that the drivers get very little work).

it would reduce pollution immensely because one cab could be used by
three drivers on a 24 hour shift rota,

How does that reduce pollution? Cabs aren't polluting anything when
they are parked up, unlike what Richmond Council seem to think.

it would also mean no lack of cabs late at night

No, for the reasons above there is more likely to be a lack of cabs. If
it's hard to get a cab at night, it's because of the inefficient use of
them at the moment. Plus the fact that just as with all other forms of
transport, there is a "rush hour" for cabs, and at night that tends to
be just around midnight.

My suggestion is to keep the drivers as self-employed like they are now
but have them work under a global system. The "operators" can still be
there to take calls and find work, and these operators would receive a
percentage of the fares based on the jobs they find, but the drivers
would work under Tfl, not under the operators. Black cabs will also be
allowed to ply for hire on the street, and keep 100% of any such fares.


A solution that could resolve the evening rush-hour problem would be
shared-cabs (find others going to the same location). Could benefit
everyone - lower fares for the passengers, higher fares for the driver
and more cabs available.

,just one thing though because there is no glass partition in
minicabs as in black cabs,I do find many minicab drivers appear to have a
problem with personal hygiene it would be a bonus if their job
description
included brushing their teeth & taking a shower now & again.

What probably comes from being overworked and even sleeping in their
cars. And in the summer time, waiting for jobs in the car is not
pleasant. Actually, it never is, but particularly bad in summer or very
cold winter.
----------------------------------------------------------
A solution that could resolve the evening rush-hour problem would be
shared-cabs (find others going to the same location). Could benefit
everyone - lower fares for the passengers, higher fares for the driver
and more cabs available
----------------------------------------------------------
I take cabs precisely because I do not want to share my space with anyone
else,many single women would feel unsafe sharing,if I want to share I will
take the bus "thank you"

Zara Henderson wrote:

----------------------------------------------------------
A solution that could resolve the evening rush-hour problem would be
shared-cabs (find others going to the same location). Could benefit
everyone - lower fares for the passengers, higher fares for the driver
and more cabs available
----------------------------------------------------------
I take cabs precisely because I do not want to share my space with anyone
else,many single women would feel unsafe sharing,if I want to share I will
take the bus "thank you"

Wouldn't that make you feel safer? It's true the drivers are now
checked by the Public Carriage Office so as long as you use a licensed
cab you are far more likely to be safe. And sharing would be an option,
it wouldn't be forced on you. But the more other people in the car, the
safer you are surely likely to be? If you did end up sharing with just
one other passenger who happened to be male, there is always the option
that one of you sits in the front (probably the male).

The main danger of the bus is the walk from the bus stop to home?

"Colin McKenzie" wrote in message
...
Mike Hughes wrote:
Indeed, London transport couldn't get their staff in and out of work when
the tubes are shut without taxis,

Most of these journeys could be cycled, on quiet night-time roads.

Except the return journey would not be on quiet night time roads.
Below is a sample of genuine regular staff taxi journeys that get booked at
Arnos Grove Depot;
Inbound AM
Ladbroke Grove to Palmers Road[1]/Oakwood[2]
Holloway Road to Palmers Road/Oakwood
Turnpike Lane to Palmers Road/Oakwood
Kentish Town to Palmers Road/Oakwood
Silver Street to Palmers Road/Oakwood
Outbound PM
Reverse of all of the above with the exception of the Ladbroke Grove run
Palmers Road/Oakwood to High Barnet
Palmers Road to Chatham BR
Few of these are likely to appeal to someone who has just dragged themselves
out of their pit at stupid o'clock and is looking down the barrel of an
eight hour shift, or has just completed one.
Plus, come May next year LU is promising to taxi any staff member, who
misses their train connection home due to the extended running, to their
home BR station, which is going to mean the average staff taxi journey
length increasing.

[1] Palmers Road is the booking point on CABS for Arnos Grove Depot.
[2] Staff at Arnos can be required to book on/off at Arnos Grove or Oakwood
depending on what duty they're doing.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change from jealous to sad to reply.

Zara Henderson wrote:

Why don't Transport for London introduce a system whereby taxis &
minicabs are employed by them & are paid a regular wage just like bus
& train drivers,

Because there would be nothing to stop taxi drivers parking in a side road
for eight hours reading a paper and then saying they couldn't find any
passengers, and then going home with the same pay. They would also be less
willing to take risks with punters, so women in Ascot hats and gentlemen in
Panama hats would be the only people who could get taxis, and only when they
were completely sober.

it would reduce pollution immensely because one cab
could be used by three drivers on a 24 hour shift rota,

How would that reduce pollution? Anyway, something like half the cabs in
London are already shared by two drivers.

it would also mean no lack of cabs late at night,

Why don't you work at night and socialise in the day, that way you won't
have a problem getting cabs! Cabbies want to socialise and see their
children, same as anyone else.

just one thing though because
there is no glass partition in minicabs as in black cabs,I do find
many minicab drivers appear to have a problem with personal hygiene
it would be a bonus if their job description included brushing their
teeth & taking a shower now & again.

Unlike taxis, which are a public service, minicabs are operated by private
companies, so if you don't like the service you get from one minicab
company, use a different one, or use taxis. Anyway, think of all the poor
drivers who have to put up with the stink of your attitude, which no glass
partition could mask.

Let me pick my routes for these journeys:

Ladbroke Grove to Palmers Road[1]/Oakwood[2]

Interesting one to start but one I know reasonably well: cross Harrow
Road following Chamberlayne Road then turn left into Chambers Lane and
through St Andrews Road onto the Willesden High Road (A407) then follow
that and A4088 (Dudden Hill Lane) until North Circular then follow
that, left into Station Road (A109) and then right. (For Oakwood you
can either use Wilmer Way and then through A111 Southgate B550 Colney
Hatch Lane then through to Russell Lane, Church Hill Road and Cat
Hill).

Holloway Road to Palmers Road/Oakwood
For Oakwood, A1, B550 (Muswell Hill Road) and as before. For Southgate
you can turn right into B106 (Alexandra Park Road) then A109 or even
Brownlow Road and left from there to Bowes Road.

Turnpike Lane to Palmers Road/Oakwood
A504 through Hornsey up to Muswell Hill, or A105, A109 etc. Alternative
of A105, A111 to Oakwood.

Kentish Town to Palmers Road/Oakwood
A400, A1, B550 etc.

Silver Street to Palmers Road/Oakwood
A406 and A1110 Bowes Road. For Oakwood, A111 (at Great Cambridge
Roundabout).

A number of those routes when through Muswell Hill, a big climb on a
bicycle.