Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100%
universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you
will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for
example, is £6, not £4...

Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we
have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country).

On 27 Oct 2006 12:26:03 -0700, "
wrote:

sorry... having a few technical problems here.... :|

You work for LUL, right? You must be used to it!

wrote:
Well today the posters went up all over the place about the changes
coming to how incomplete journeys are charged on pre-pay Oyster cards,
and most staff should by now have had some training on what's
happening. The whole thing starts from 19th November 2006 (apart from
the few stations who've had it already for a couple weeks, as a test)
and will affect anyone using pre-pay Oyster who doesn't touch in or out
correctly.

Basically for any journey that is not validated at start AND finish (by
touching on the yellow readers) you will be charged £4 (which is the
maximum cash price for a 1-6 single).

Any journeys in one day that this happens will NOT count towards your
cap, but will NOT, as at present, stop you getting a cap. For example,
you do 6 journeys in one day, around London, one of which is incomplete
for whatever reason. You will get the normal cap for 5 of the
journeys, PLUS £4 for the incomplete journey. If you have 2
incomplete journeys, it'll cost you £8 extra etc.

Contrary to previous comments, you will NOT be required to have a
minimum balance of £5 on your Oyster - you can still enter with the
minimum amount (£1 for most zones) on your card, which will go into a
negative balance as you enter, and be adjusted correctly as you exit
the network.

LU Ticket Offices will NOT be able to resolve these for you (as they
can at present) UNLESS it is due to a known event or problem (such as
gateline readers are not functional at the time of travel). You will
have to phone Oyster helpdesk to get it sorted.

As at present you cannot travel with a negative pre-pay balance, even
if you have a season ticket for the zone(s) you're in, so everyone must
be extra careful not to get these incomplete journeys - which is, after
all, one of the main reasons this is happening.

Customers carrying a season ticket (say a monthly zones 1-2 ticket)
will be charged for incomplete journeys, but at £1 or £1.50 for
journeys outside of zones, which is the same as at present.

Don't shoot the messenger....


Why are people meekly accepting this and asking technical questions?
The whole thing is totally f*cking outrageous. There is suppposed to
be a cap, but they now have a system that says "if we don't like you,
the cap doesn't apply" (and we don't like you if you don't jump through
our hoops, regardless of whether you have already been charged the
maximum for a day).

Has Michael O'Leary taken over from Ken Livingstone or something?

The tide is turning against the latter, and it is going to turn against
the Oyster thugs as well.

Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100%
universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you
will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for
example, is £6, not £4...

Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we
have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country).

On 27 Oct 2006 16:49:12 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

The whole thing is totally f*cking outrageous. There is suppposed to
be a cap, but they now have a system that says "if we don't like you,
the cap doesn't apply" (and we don't like you if you don't jump through
our hoops, regardless of whether you have already been charged the
maximum for a day).

People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too
****ing right it gets clamped down on.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:35:01 +0100,
Paul Corfield wrote:

The £4 charge (or £5 for some specific journeys on NR interavailable
lines) on entry applies to people using PAYG *only*.


Does this mean that there will have to be 4GBP on the card even to make
a Z1 journey or will it still be 1.50GBP and the 3GBP deposit will allow
for it (same as today where you can make a Z1-Z6 journey with only
1.5GBP on the card)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

James Farrar wrote:
On 27 Oct 2006 16:49:12 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

The whole thing is totally f*cking outrageous. There is suppposed to
be a cap, but they now have a system that says "if we don't like you,
the cap doesn't apply" (and we don't like you if you don't jump through
our hoops, regardless of whether you have already been charged the
maximum for a day).

People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too
****ing right it gets clamped down on.


And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to
keep on cheating.

Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the
day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't
possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay?

James Farrar wrote:
People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too
****ing right it gets clamped down on.

Too right, its about time something was done to stop it.

MIG wrote:
And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to
keep on cheating.

Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the
day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't
possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay?

I don't have the info in front of me right now (maybe Paul C has some
handy...) but the problem remains that someone may travel zones 1-2 to
receive a cap, then have an unresolved journey which MAY take them out
to zone D, where they avoid touching out because, as you said, they
have already capped, and they may think they'll get away with a free
trip up the met.

I personally can't see a better way to sort the problem of incorrect
Oyster useage than to stamp down on it, however I'm sure if there is a
way that is fairer for everyone, you should suggest it to the company.

wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too
****ing right it gets clamped down on.

Too right, its about time something was done to stop it.

MIG wrote:
And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to
keep on cheating.

Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the
day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't
possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay?

I don't have the info in front of me right now (maybe Paul C has some
handy...) but the problem remains that someone may travel zones 1-2 to
receive a cap, then have an unresolved journey which MAY take them out
to zone D, where they avoid touching out because, as you said, they
have already capped, and they may think they'll get away with a free
trip up the met.

I personally can't see a better way to sort the problem of incorrect
Oyster useage than to stamp down on it, however I'm sure if there is a
way that is fairer for everyone, you should suggest it to the company.


1) Don't create new crimes just for the sake of punishing them (ie the
evil crime of forgetting to touch out, despite having fully paid your
way for the day).

2) Don't clamp down on people for not using Oyster until Oyster is
fully available (ie the £4 cash fare).

3) Don't simultaneously clamp down on mistakes and make it more
difficult to correct mistakes.

4) Sell paper extension tickets at £1 for people who can show a valid
paper travelcard for part of their journey, so that you don't end up
paying £4 for forgetting to get off the train at the boundary, go to
the exit, touch, go back to the platform, wait for another train ...

Bear in mind that if you forget to touch in somewhere non-gated (eg on
DLR), you now have no option but to avoid touching out, thereby
avoiding the fare altogether (unless already capped). You don't have
the option of paying the correct fare, and the fare of £1 that you
would have been prepared to pay is lost. Unjust systems encourage
evasion.

This cheating has cost London £10-15 million a year. That's you and me. You
happy with that?
"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too
****ing right it gets clamped down on.

Too right, its about time something was done to stop it.

MIG wrote:
And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to
keep on cheating.

Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the
day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't
possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay?

I don't have the info in front of me right now (maybe Paul C has some
handy...) but the problem remains that someone may travel zones 1-2 to
receive a cap, then have an unresolved journey which MAY take them out
to zone D, where they avoid touching out because, as you said, they
have already capped, and they may think they'll get away with a free
trip up the met.

I personally can't see a better way to sort the problem of incorrect
Oyster useage than to stamp down on it, however I'm sure if there is a
way that is fairer for everyone, you should suggest it to the company.


1) Don't create new crimes just for the sake of punishing them (ie the
evil crime of forgetting to touch out, despite having fully paid your
way for the day).

2) Don't clamp down on people for not using Oyster until Oyster is
fully available (ie the £4 cash fare).

3) Don't simultaneously clamp down on mistakes and make it more
difficult to correct mistakes.

4) Sell paper extension tickets at £1 for people who can show a valid
paper travelcard for part of their journey, so that you don't end up
paying £4 for forgetting to get off the train at the boundary, go to
the exit, touch, go back to the platform, wait for another train ...

Bear in mind that if you forget to touch in somewhere non-gated (eg on
DLR), you now have no option but to avoid touching out, thereby
avoiding the fare altogether (unless already capped). You don't have
the option of paying the correct fare, and the fare of £1 that you
would have been prepared to pay is lost. Unjust systems encourage
evasion.