Sorry, Talk Like A Pirate Day was weeks ago.

Charlie
--
Remove NO-SPOO-PLEASE from my email address to reply
Please send no unsolicited email or foodstuffs

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.
Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.

True - but trying to explain to people that they should always touch in
and touch out to avoid paying a £4 fare, except if they have a valid
season ticket, except if they need to travel outside their zones, will
just end up confusing most. Given that people have so much difficulty
understanding the difference between prepay and season tickets loaded
onto Oyster, it's probably best to cut one's losses and just tell
everyone to touch in/out - at least that way, there is no room for
confusion and everyone is guaranteed to pay the right fare (even if it's
£0).

I noticed the other day that there are now signs which make the
validators at Olympia more prominent. I hope that attitude is taken
elsewhere on the system too.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:40:09 +0000, Dave Arquati
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.

True - but trying to explain to people that they should always touch in
and touch out to avoid paying a £4 fare, except if they have a valid
season ticket, except if they need to travel outside their zones, will
just end up confusing most. Given that people have so much difficulty
understanding the difference between prepay and season tickets loaded
onto Oyster, it's probably best to cut one's losses and just tell
everyone to touch in/out - at least that way, there is no room for
confusion and everyone is guaranteed to pay the right fare (even if it's
£0).

I take the point but I still believe the absence of a full explanatory
set of information is a serious omission. Yes many may choose not to
read it but a fair proportion of customers would. With numerical
examples showing how the system adds up the value, applies caps and
treats non validation I'm sure we could get a better informed passenger
base. Much of the most basic information about thresholds, going into
negative value, journey times etc is not made clear anywhere in the
public domain - that has to be wrong.

I noticed the other day that there are now signs which make the
validators at Olympia more prominent. I hope that attitude is taken
elsewhere on the system too.

Tell me about it - we have had to make sure all the signs for JNP were
done to time. It's taken a big effort given that we have struggled to
get a correct specification out of the people in charge of the change. I
had to point out to people that they probably hadn't considered several
issues - they then asked who I was to be raising such issues. I told
them what my old job was - they went a bit quiet ;-)
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

How to confuse absolutely everybody.

The whole thing is a disaster!
Of all station announcements I heard - *none* stated the size of the
fee (all use "maximum cash fare", which does not say anything to
passengers), and most made some important omissions:
* Liverpool Street announcer does not say that this is for Oyster
Pay-As-You-Go* - she just says Oyster
* Stratford announcer does not say anything about Oyster at all (just
"if you don't touch in or touch out") and all with a very threatening
voice (IMHO)
* I think only DLR got everything correctly

Then again Stratford announcements should not be any indication - they
had big problems with automatic announcer during entire week (it
skipped names of several stations - "service to ... and ... arrives at
platform 10"). Finally they started using live person, and boy she's
fast! ("service to
Ilfordsevenkingromforgideaparkaroldwoodshenfilbile ricawickford and
southend victoria"). And with horrible accent.

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
(currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
financially viable).

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.
Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.

And my point is that the information is intrinsically (and, IMO,
unnecessarily) complicated, so it's no wonder that it's being misunderstood.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
(currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
financially viable).

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.

That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are
implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are implicitly
assumed to be honest.

You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch
in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch
in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
(currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
financially viable).

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary.

That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".

Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.

Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.
Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
(currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
financially viable).
Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary.

That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".

Only where they can do the same with paper tickets.

Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.

Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.

Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I
certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would
they suddenly be new problems with Oyster?

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical
reasons (currently including many national rail stations without
Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible
fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect
isn't really financially viable).

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.
Would be lovely; sadly people aren't always honest. Indeed crime goes
down when you put more ticket inspectors in place (on National Rail).
That's why you need checks and balances in the system.

You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have
ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below)
and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned
stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone
extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's
more

That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are
implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are
implicitly assumed to be honest.
There's (currently) no alternatively for Travelcard users. It's a case
of better to accurately categorise some journeys than none at all.

You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can
touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to
touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined.
Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a
flat fare style system. I would have also thought there are more
carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking