Paul Corfield wrote:

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.


I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.

You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.

DLR validators can not possibly require a DLR touch-in in all cases for
a DLR touch-out to work correctly, can they? But if so, that would
explain this. But then again there must be some exceptions because it is
still not the same logic as used at Bank for instance because it is
possible to touche-in a tube journey, change to DLR at Bank without
validating and then touch-out at Canary Wharf.

For some reason I have never done the opposit, DLR to 'one' at
Stratford. It would be interesting to see what the 'one' validator says
at Stratford if I touch-in on DLR at Canary Wharf and not touch-out on
the DLR validator at Stratford but then touch the 'one' validator there.

I've not investigated the north side of Stratford Station - are there
validators on or near the "one" platforms for trains to Tottenham Hale
(and north thereof)?

Yes, but they only seem to exit the 'one' journey, not start/continue a
DLR journey.

If so, a very interesting set of logic at work there.

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now). On other NR-DLR interchange stations PAYG is not valid on NR.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:06:01 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.

You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly

UIVMM this is not how the PAYG system works. It's all one PAYG journey
and there is no concept of it being divided into separate 'one' and
DLR journeys.

and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.

Regarding the latter case, perhaps the 'one' validator is set to
"entry or exit" rather than "entry, exit, or interchange" (I don't
know the official terms so I've made these ones up).

But I'm at a loss to explain why it happens when you don't touch at
Stratford at all.

Even the official TfL instructions state that you don't need to touch
a validator when interchanging, except at Bank:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

When you say the DLR validator at Canary Wharf registers an entry, is
that according to your journey history, or just the LCD display by the
validator? Perhaps (I haven't checked) when the decision of a
validator's logic is "exit or interchange", it displays "enter" even
though you could actually be exiting.

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now).

Canning Town, Limehouse

asdf wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:06:01 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:


Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR

from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have

found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.


You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly


UIVMM this is not how the PAYG system works. It's all one PAYG journey
and there is no concept of it being divided into separate 'one' and
DLR journeys.

That is correct, I just meant that the interchange is registered
correctly when I touch the DLR validator but not the 'one' validator.

and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.


Regarding the latter case, perhaps the 'one' validator is set to
"entry or exit" rather than "entry, exit, or interchange" (I don't
know the official terms so I've made these ones up).

But I'm at a loss to explain why it happens when you don't touch at
Stratford at all.

Even the official TfL instructions state that you don't need to touch
a validator when interchanging, except at Bank:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

Yes, but I have found out that when I have changed without touching at
Bank it has still worked correctly so I don't know why they have an
exception like that for Bank.

When you say the DLR validator at Canary Wharf registers an entry, is
that according to your journey history, or just the LCD display by the
validator?

It displays 'Entry' on the LCD display at Canary Wharf in that case (I
didn't check the journey history). When I touch the validators at
Stratford it says 'Exit' on either the 'one' or DLR validator and they
both adjust the charge to one single T. Hale - Stratford journey. If I
validate on both of them the 'one' validator says 'Exit', adjusts the
charge and the DLR validator says 'Entry' with a lower entry charge. But
it is then only adding the DLR part of my journey when I touch out at
Canary Wharf if I have touched the DLR validator at Stratford otherwise
it believes I am entering the system there, even if I do not validate at
all at Stratford (this seems to lead to two unresolved journeys).

Perhaps (I haven't checked) when the decision of a
validator's logic is "exit or interchange", it displays "enter" even
though you could actually be exiting.

That might be true when touching an enter-or-interchange-only validator
when interchanging, I have not checked that, but it is not the case if
the validator is also used for exiting because then it exits the journey
and adjusts to the fare to pay so far of the journey (because it has no
way of knowing that you intend to continue the journey in that case, it
just deducts a lower entry charge if the journey is continued by
touching in again right after the touch-out).

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now).


Canning Town, Limehouse

Yes of course you are right. Would be interesting to check how it works
there. I am not very familiar with those stations, I have only changed
between DLR trains at Canning Town, but are there different validators
for NR and DLR platforms there too?

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:16:59 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

But I have noticed another interesting thing about the via-or-not-via
zone 1 question. If I travel from Tottenham Hale to Canada Water by
tube, it charges zone 3-1. Okay. But if I continue to Canary Wharf I
will pay less because it then charges a zone 3-2 only. Then one wonder
how it would be possible to touch in on the tube network at T. Hale and
out at Canary Wharf without going through zone 1...

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example? You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

I've not investigated the north side of Stratford Station - are there
validators on or near the "one" platforms for trains to Tottenham Hale
(and north thereof)?

If so, a very interesting set of logic at work there.

My current understanding is that there is a fixed fare for every
origin-destination pair, based on the most likely route used - and that
"revalidations" make no difference to this. For example, I believe that
for Hammersmith (District) to Harrow-on-the-Hill would be charged as a
non-Z1 journey, even if you went via Marylebone (exiting the LU gates
and entering the Chiltern gates).

The Single Fare Finder is a public front-end to this fixed-fare database.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

The fares seem to make assumptions in the favour of the passenger where
the choice between Z1 and non-Z1 routes is ambiguous. For example,
Hammersmith (D) to Dollis Hill is a non-Z1 fare, despite being faster
and involving less changes via Green Park than via Rayners Lane.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Paul Oter wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."


However this is contradicted by a letter in last night's
thelondonpaper:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Sat...D1154364219971

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

"Shashi Verma,
Transport for london"

PaulO

On 2 Dec 2006 01:06:08 -0800, "Paul Oter"
wrote:

Paul Oter wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."


However this is contradicted by a letter in last night's
thelondonpaper:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Sat...D1154364219971

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread). I bet the signage at Bank
doesn't explain that though.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:34:36 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread).

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

asdf wrote in
:

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to
compare to anything else because there are no more places where it is
possible to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can
think of now).

Canning Town, Limehouse


Only for another week :0(

Olof Lagerkvist wrote in
:


Yes of course you are right. Would be interesting to check how it
works there. I am not very familiar with those stations, I have only
changed between DLR trains at Canning Town, but are there different
validators for NR and DLR platforms there too?



Tower Hill Gateway and Fenchurch Street is another one.

asdf wrote:

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

This is possibly a way to ensure that bi-directional validators have a
reasonable way of knowing if it is an entry or exit at the station at
the end of the DLR journey.

Consider these two examples given you have a Z12 travelcard and some
PAYG value on the card.

First example, you intend to go from King's Cross to Canning Town. You
touch in at the tube gates at King's Cross, take the Northern Line,
change to DLR at Bank (without validating there) and get off at Canning
Town and touch out there. Your card has a touch-in record from KX and
you are now validating at Canning Town, it should then exit your journey
and charge a single Z3 journey from your PAYG balance.

Second example, you intend to go from King's Cross to Canary Wharf, meet
someone there and then take a DLR train from Canning Town to City
Airport. You touch in at tube gates at King's Cross, take the Northern
Line, change to DLR at Bank (without validating there) and get off at
Canary Wharf. Because you are within the zones of your travelcard you do
not touch the validator, because you do not have to. You meet a friend
there and the friend then drives you in his car to Canning Town where
you intend to take a DLR train to City Airport. Now, when you validate
at Canning Town it should be an entry but all your card has is a
touch-in from King's Cross. Should it consider this an entry or exit
then? If it would automatically consider this an exit you will get an
unresolved journey when you validate at LCY later.

Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to the
passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to validate
there.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof