On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:13:33 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:56:30 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

I think the issue will lie somewhere between DfT and Network Rail. DfT
is more interested in screwing huge premiums out of franchise holders
than it is in getting more trains running or funding an expansion in
infrastructure. The lines out of Kings Cross and Moorgate are pretty
much full in the peaks due to the need to mesh fast, semi fast and local
trains on the tracks alongside GNER, Hull Trains and soon Grand Central.

But those trains don't use the Hertford Loop (the line through Palmers
Green). The section from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park might be a
bottleneck, but aren't there extra tracks there?

Yes and where do they then go? Moorgate is a very tight bottleneck and
Kings Cross is pretty much at capacity AIUI. Mr Cowling is complaining
about the peak timetable IIRC.

I was thinking Moorgate. It currently handles 12tph in the peaks;
Brixton has the same layout and manages 30tph. But I suppose it's not
that simple.

Platforms are shorter and narrower and much more congested at Moorgate
which may create some capacity and safety issues - I am speculating
though. There is also the issue that the flows are heavily peaked - I
can't see there being demand for a high frequency n/b service from
Moorgate in the AM Peak. There is much more two way demand at Brixton
given the tube is a gateway onto a huge local bus network into South
London.

Crews would need to "step back" to increase turn round to LU standards
thus adding to costs. I think the track approaches at Moorgate are far,
far tighter and are speed controlled thus lowering capacity. Given the
history at that location you would need a lot of work to raise approach
speeds and junction capacity without increasing the overrun and
collision risk.

Brixton is a much faster approach, there is auto train control and long
overrun tunnels so is safer. I'm not sure about relative acceleration
rates on the stock but the tube *might* be a bit faster. Obviously this
will increase considerably with the new V stock in a few years time thus
improving the capacity yet further.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Yes and where do they then go? Moorgate is a very tight bottleneck

Really? Has its capacity been reduced since all that extra stock now on the
North London Line used to run there?

It may be poor but I do use the Hertford line infrequently and
typically off peak. It is never more than 20% full even with 3 car
trains.

.... because people who have a choice use the Piccadilly Line, because it's
more frequent. Too frequent, actually - north of Arnos Grove, the Picc seems
to have about 1 person per carriage for much of the week.

Would TfL really run that level service parallel to a 18tph tube
line? I think you've just answered your own question.

A train ever ten minutes all day south of Gordon Hill and New Barnet would
do a lot to pull people back from the Picc, so frequent trains might end up
fuller than infrequent ones. Wimbledon to West Croydon springs to mind.

In message , John Rowland
writes

A train ever ten minutes all day south of Gordon Hill and New Barnet would
do a lot to pull people back from the Picc, so frequent trains might end up
fuller than infrequent ones. Wimbledon to West Croydon springs to mind.


Exactly ! There is tumble weed rolling about on Alley Pally station
during the day yet the Picc line is still wall to wall shoppers and back
packers. They don't even think of using the rail link because...

a. The timetable is complex and keeps changing. Leaffall !! gimme a
break it just means we all miss our trains for weeks trying to work out
when the darn trains will actually arrive.

b. The service is too sporadic. A train every ten minutes stopping at
every station and you'd see the shoppers back on the trains.


--
Edward Cowling London UK

John Rowland wrote:
... because people who have a choice use the Piccadilly Line, because it's
more frequent. Too frequent, actually - north of Arnos Grove, the Picc seems
to have about 1 person per carriage for much of the week.

You are joking? In the rush hour the picc is packed north of arnos
grove and frankly the service resembles a country branch line a lot of
the time with 10 min waits for trains if the service is ****ed as it is
at least once a week. The picc needs to run more trains north of arnos
grove during rush hour , not less, and in doing so would also solve the
problems of trains backing up south of arnos grove because of no free
platforms since all the trains are just sitting the with red signals
(presumably the signalman is watching Neighbours or something). The
worst it has ever been in my experience is backed up trains to Arsenal.
This might mean trains back up from cockfosters but at least it would
mean the trains get further before they get stuck and so fewer people
would be delayed.

B2003

In article , asdf
writes
But those trains don't use the Hertford Loop (the line through Palmers
Green). The section from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park might be a
bottleneck, but aren't there extra tracks there?

There are three passenger tracks northbound and two southbound. This is
most obvious at Finsbury Park, where there are only two southbound
platforms. [There is also an Up Goods from south of Ally Pally, but even
if this was upgraded for passenger train use it would be pretty useless.
If you wanted fast trains to Dalston Kingsland, perhaps ....]

if it were run by TfL I'm sure there would be at least 6tph on each
branch (which they manage to run in the peaks, so there must be
capacity for it). The Piccadilly Line runs through similar areas, and
manages to justify something like 18tph.

Which may make more than 2/3tph off-peak on these lines uneconomic.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Transport for London seem intent on making every other vehicle on our
roads a half empty bendy bus. I believe it being on fire is optional :-)

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

I was about to say, "this is clearly some new definition of huge gaps in
the service, given there's a train every 10 minutes"...but then I
checked the timetable and it seems that FCC have been messing about with it.

New timetable gives the following departures from Palmers Green:

0535 (to Kings Cross), 0605 (to Moorgate), 0635, 0658, 0709, 0718, 0728,
0737, 0745, 0753, 0802, 0815, 0823, 0828, 0845, 0903, 0908, 0920, 0938
and then it settles down to the off-peak pattern of xx55, xx15 and xx35.

Have to say that I'm rather lucky living near the Cambridge, as it gives
me a choice of Palmers Green, Edmonton Green or Silver Street, all
taking about the same time to get to.

New timetable on "one" gives an 0530, 0600, 0615, then near enough every
10 minutes from Silver Street until 0945, when it settles down to the
off-peak pattern of every 15 minutes.

Cheers,

Barry

In message , Barry Salter
writes

New timetable on "one" gives an 0530, 0600, 0615, then near enough
every 10 minutes from Silver Street until 0945, when it settles down to
the off-peak pattern of every 15 minutes.


A friend uses that line into Liverpool street and says it's far less
accident prone that mine as well as a better service. I've been thinking
of actually heading the wrong way up to Enfield Town in the morning to
catch it.

I'll probably try that route a few times in January and see how it goes.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

A friend uses that line into Liverpool street and says it's far less
accident prone that mine as well as a better service. I've been thinking
of actually heading the wrong way up to Enfield Town in the morning to
catch it.

I'll probably try that route a few times in January and see how it goes.

Well you've got more chance of getting a seat if you board at Enfield
Town, certainly, though you "only" get 4tph from there, the other 2tph
come down from Cheshunt, with the full 6tph running between Edmonton
Green and Liverpool Street.

And Liverpool Street is just a short walk from Moorgate.

Having said that, Enfield Town is in Zone 5. If you want a Zone 4
station, you need Edmonton Green or Silver Street.

Checking fares just now, a point to point season from Palmers Green to
London is currently £956 a year, compared with £1264 for a 1 to 4
Travelcard. From Edmonton Green, it's £920 a year.

You could also get an Enfield Stations [1] to London point to point for
£992 a year, which would then be valid by either route, and at all
intermediate stations on both.

Cheers,

Barry

[1] Enfield Chase and Enfield Town

Barry Salter wrote:

New timetable gives the following departures from Palmers Green:

0535 (to Kings Cross), 0605 (to Moorgate), 0635, 0658, 0709, 0718, 0728,
0737, 0745, 0753, 0802, 0815, 0823, 0828, 0845, 0903, 0908, 0920, 0938
and then it settles down to the off-peak pattern of xx55, xx15 and xx35.

I haven't seen that timetable before. I see a big gap 8:02 to 8:15 and
8:28 to 8:45. I'll also have to check if any of these skip Bowes Park.

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running
on the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every
morning and there are huge gaps in the service.

That's partly because there are semi-fasts which skip Palmers Green, and
there are no overtaking opportunities between Stevenage junction and
Alexandra Palace via Palmers Green (although they can start extra trains at
Gordon Hill or Hertford North).