wrote:

I'm not really talking about legally enforceable, slapping people with
fines for walking down a passageway the wrong way. I mean taking
action as outlined in the original post, i.e. putting a barrier up,
which would have completely resolved the situation in this instance.

There are barriers in some stations - Holborn I think - but in general
it's a free for all, with regular users trying to get out quicker by
leaving by the in tunnels and stairs - only sometimes they encounter a
wall of people coming the right way - if I'm one of those i stand my
ground and make them sweat, or say loudly - "You're going the wrong
way..."

E.

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
d wrote:

I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush
hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well,
ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across
a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each
other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them,
blocking the two-people-wide passageways.

They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your ability to
walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic situation. Does it
really matter if you get to the platform 5 seconds later? (The chance of
missing a train due to that delay is less than 5%.) How do you expect a
parent to keep a small child safe in a crowded passageway other than by
holding the child's hand?

They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same
speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. And, funnily enough, the
delay caused is enough to regularly make me miss trains. I change from the
Victoria to the Circle/District lines at Victoria every morning, and train
frequency is actually pretty good during rush hour for some reason. Getting
caught up anywhere on the few-hundred-metres interchange can most definitely
mean enough of a delay to miss a train. It happens on a regular basis.

I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's
ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving
a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see
on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and
walked the kid in front of her, she'd be protecting it a lot more than just
letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush
hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite
easily take it out.

But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child,
overcrowding the interchange, blocking the escalators, and eventually
leading to station closures.

dave

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...
Neillw001 wrote:

I encountered the smae situation at TCR on a Saturday a few weeks
back, except that the area was a bit less crowded. I think it is down
to a large proportion of people being idiots when moving around in
places such as underground station.

I think that you could have stopped at 'when moving around'! ;-)

It's the same everywhere. People, most often of the female persuasion,
have a habit of just stopping for no apparent reason, in the middle of a
swathe of flowing pedestrians. For some reason, a quick glance over the
shoulder before doing so seems to be too much like hard work.

I don't know if it's mainly the ladies who wander around aimlessly - I've
definitely seen guys doing it too. The best is the slow meander across a
crowded tunnel, causing everyone to either trip over the individual in
question, get pushed forward, walking into each other or somehow predict
their movements and perform a bullet-time leap over them.

A couple of years ago, in the midst of a fairly swiftly moving crowd of
pedestrians, the woman in front of me stopped abruptly and bent down (for
what I have no idea). I tried desperately to stop in time and ended up
very nearly making contact with her voluptuous bottom, leaning over her
and very close to falling on top of her. She was utterly oblivious
throughout, despite some Anglo-Saxon expletives being aimed in her
direction.

The amount of insanity on the underground is startling. I swear some people
think it's their living room or something, like they're shuffling around
trying to find the remote with a cup of tea in their hand, not walking
through a crowded station at rush-hour. Barriers and summary executions for
transgressors would speed things along nicely, but then that's just me :-P

dave

wrote:

Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube
staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR,
although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've
almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only
signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't
"block" any entrance or exit?

Tower Hill in the morning peak is another example of this unnecessary chaos,
with people barging up the 'entry only' staircase and tutting if anyone gets
in their way.

The simple answer here would be to make all the barriers in this lobby
'entry only', forcing people to return to platform level and along to the
correct exit, which has a separate set of barriers.

Chris

d wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
d wrote:

I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations
during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well,
ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across
a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into
each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them,
blocking the two-people-wide passageways.

They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your
ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic
situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5
seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay
is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small
child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the
child's hand?

They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling
the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too.

You mean like on the M25 when the variable speed limits are in force?
Those are designed to maximise traffic flow on a congested road. People
overtaking and weaving in and out of lanes actually reduce total traffic
flow. Likewise in Tube passageways.

[snip]
I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In
fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the
usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a
really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the
mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front
of her,

Have you tried holding a kid's hand and walking him *in front of* you,
when he doesn't know where he's supposed to go?

... she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag
slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour,
where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite
easily take it out.
But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and
child, overcrowding the interchange,

No. Overcrowding occurs when there aren't enough trains to handle the
waiting passengers. Slowing down the arrival of passengers on the
platform, which the mother would achieve according to you, actually
reduces overcrowding.

blocking the escalators,

I thought we were talking about passageways.

and eventually leading to station closures.

False logic; see above re overcrowding.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

d wrote:

They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same
speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. And, funnily enough, the
delay caused is enough to regularly make me miss trains. I change from the
Victoria to the Circle/District lines at Victoria every morning, and train
frequency is actually pretty good during rush hour for some reason. Getting
caught up anywhere on the few-hundred-metres interchange can most definitely
mean enough of a delay to miss a train. It happens on a regular basis.

I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's
ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving
a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see
on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and
walked the kid in front of her, she'd be protecting it a lot more than just
letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush
hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite
easily take it out.

But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child,
overcrowding the interchange, blocking the escalators, and eventually
leading to station closures.

dave

Agreed totally. I travel National Rail to Victoria District Line every
morning, and once I've managed to negotiate those selfish people weaving
all over the place with their planet-sized suitcases and those coming up
the down direction stairs to the Tube, I then have the pleasure of those
idiots who stand around at the top of the stairs to the District Line,
or those who think they can get out or change to the Victoria Line using
the ticket hall platform stairs. And it's not just a tourist problem,
as there are big symbolic "no entry" signs at the bottom, which
generally mean the same thing everywhere.

I'm actually pretty considerate of my fellow travellers and try not to
get in the way. I look and react. Why can't more people do the same?
Bring on "speed lanes" for those walkers who want to actually get where
they are going today!

Cheers

Steve M

wrote:
Last night at about 1830 I was at Tottenham Court Road. Of the three
escalators which lead up to the ticket hall, two were coming down and
only one was going up, which is in itself unusual. This meant that
there was a big crowd building at the bottom of the one up escalator.

At Tottenham Court Road, when you get to the bottom of the escalators,
you're meant to go straight ahead for the Central Line, or left for the
Northern Line. However, if you go right, you can also get to the
Central Line, but you're walking against one of the exit routes from
the CL.

As I said, last night there was a big crowd at the bottom of the up
escalator, which meant that loads of people who were trying to cut down
this way were shoving their way through an already large crowd. I said
to one woman who was screaming out "Excuse me! Let me through!" that
if she'd go the signposted way it'd be much easier on everyone.
Needless to state I got a mouthful of abuse.

There was a member of staff at the bottom of the escalators. He had
one of those temporary barrier things partially erected. All he needed
to do was extend it out slightly further and the problem would have
gone away, as people would have been forced to walk straight ahead for
the Central Line, thus creating two clear pathways, one in and one out.

Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube
staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR,
although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've
almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only
signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't
"block" any entrance or exit?


Just as well, the one-way system at Tottenham Court Road for the
Northern Line is totally biased for Southern-based passengers. As when
I'm heading for that platform I am generally going North I totally
ignore the signs. After all, I might miss my train by 3 seconds then
have to wait 8 minutes for the next one.

Steve M wrote:
I've managed to negotiate those selfish people weaving
all over the place with their planet-sized suitcases and those coming up
the down direction stairs to the Tube

Who ever designed a bag the size of a small plane and put wheels and a
pull up handle on it? Now people travel with their entire life in a
bag.. and it's usually so heavy that the owner has to wait for someone
to step in and help them up, or down, stairs. A good samaritan soon
realises just how heavy the bag is and vows never to help anyone with a
house-on-wheels again - meaning we move around waiting ages for the
owner to lift their bag up one step at a time.

Most of the time, I find it quite funny - but if you're in a rush, I
can fully understand why people get angry. Right or wrong, it's going
to happen.

I'm actually pretty considerate of my fellow travellers and try not to
get in the way. I look and react.

Me too. It's rather like driving. Walk in a straight line and give a
quick look over the shoulder if you're about to cut left or right to
speed up (that way you won't cut up the person behind that had the same
vision of that gap ahead). If you are wheeling a bag, look to check you
don't hit or trip people. It's not rocket science.

People with kids are different, as kids are unpredictable and must be
kept close in large crowds. Ditto with anyone that is unable to walk
due to any disability, old age etc. My problems are rarely with
children, but arrogant individuals who have no idea that anyone else
even exists around them. Even if they do, they're sure as hell not
going to let you pass.

On the underground, some considerations could also be made to the
positioning of maps/posters and leaflet racks. These are often in
places that encourage people to stop dead to read, pick up a tube map
etc - with inevitable hold ups.

Jonathan

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
d wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
d wrote:

I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations
during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well,
ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across
a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into
each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them,
blocking the two-people-wide passageways.

They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your
ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic
situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5
seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay
is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small
child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the
child's hand?

They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling
the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too.

You mean like on the M25 when the variable speed limits are in force?
Those are designed to maximise traffic flow on a congested road. People
overtaking and weaving in and out of lanes actually reduce total traffic
flow. Likewise in Tube passageways.

No, I mean like where inconsiderate road users cause congestion. Unless
you're suggesting those mothers & kids are actually government-instituted
station-calming schemes?

[snip]
I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In
fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the
usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a
really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the
mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front
of her,

Have you tried holding a kid's hand and walking him *in front of* you,
when he doesn't know where he's supposed to go?

That's why you can steer them by their hands. Kids aren't as stupid as they
look.

... she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag
slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour,
where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite
easily take it out.
But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and
child, overcrowding the interchange,

No. Overcrowding occurs when there aren't enough trains to handle the
waiting passengers. Slowing down the arrival of passengers on the
platform, which the mother would achieve according to you, actually
reduces overcrowding.

No, that would be true if there was a uniform dispersion of passengers
throughout a station. Clearly that's not the case. I've seen
moderately-empty platforms next to jammed-as-**** pedestrian tunnels, simply
because the people were getting jammed up in the tunnels between the
platforms and ticket halls. All it takes is some asshat on crowded
escalators, and there can be knock-on effects down the rest of the
escalator, and indeed only clearing when the escalators become empty enough
for the foot traffic to recover. Here's an example: A crowded escalator,
the people on the left are walking, those on the right are not. Now, if one
person on the left decides to stop walking at the top of the escalator, only
for a few metres, it will undoubtedly cause those people behind them to
stop. Owing to the full nature of the escalators, that will cause the
people behind them to stop, and so-on. But by your logic, it's impossible
for that to happen, as overcrowding only happens on platforms.

blocking the escalators,

I thought we were talking about passageways.

I'm talking about everywhere passengers go on the underground, where there
is limited real estate for people to hang around in. Escalators, tunnels,
etc.


and eventually leading to station closures.

False logic; see above re overcrowding.

No - just stating that overcrowding happens only because there aren't enough
trains is false logic, as you pulled that out of your ass, obviously.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

dave

"Earl Purple" wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:
Last night at about 1830 I was at Tottenham Court Road. Of the three
escalators which lead up to the ticket hall, two were coming down and
only one was going up, which is in itself unusual. This meant that
there was a big crowd building at the bottom of the one up escalator.

At Tottenham Court Road, when you get to the bottom of the escalators,
you're meant to go straight ahead for the Central Line, or left for the
Northern Line. However, if you go right, you can also get to the
Central Line, but you're walking against one of the exit routes from
the CL.

As I said, last night there was a big crowd at the bottom of the up
escalator, which meant that loads of people who were trying to cut down
this way were shoving their way through an already large crowd. I said
to one woman who was screaming out "Excuse me! Let me through!" that
if she'd go the signposted way it'd be much easier on everyone.
Needless to state I got a mouthful of abuse.

There was a member of staff at the bottom of the escalators. He had
one of those temporary barrier things partially erected. All he needed
to do was extend it out slightly further and the problem would have
gone away, as people would have been forced to walk straight ahead for
the Central Line, thus creating two clear pathways, one in and one out.

Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube
staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR,
although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've
almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only
signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't
"block" any entrance or exit?


Just as well, the one-way system at Tottenham Court Road for the
Northern Line is totally biased for Southern-based passengers. As when
I'm heading for that platform I am generally going North I totally
ignore the signs. After all, I might miss my train by 3 seconds then
have to wait 8 minutes for the next one.

And how many people do you put out by doing that? Remember - just because
something is beneficial to you, it doesn't mean it's beneficial to others.
What if you saving 3 seconds makes 40 other people delayed by 1 second each?
You would have selfishly exchanged 40 people/seconds of other peoples' time
for 3 people/seconds of your own. The signs are usually there for a reason.

dave