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#1
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As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest)
June 2010. What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme. Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down. |
#2
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On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:01:21 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote: As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest) June 2010. What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme. Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down. AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then either. I don't know how much construction is going to be needed on the current ELL itself to cope with the new standards but I imagine a fair amount of supporting infrastructure will be needed. The physical integration issue with other lines is different - the northern section will be linked in on a section that is closed anyway so no impact there. At the southern end I understand that a flyover is to be constructed and I imagine there will not be a huge issue with linking that in - a longish weekend possession could deal with that. The bigger issues concern testing all of the signalling and control systems and the new rolling stock and training the drivers on the larger network. While there is a parallel here to the JLE it is important to remember that the huge issues with the JLE arose when they joined the new bit to the old bit. The interface at Green Park was (and to some extent still is) a nightmare and caused huge delays and signalling failures. Given the ability of the expanded ELL to spread delays all over north and south London I imagine a lot of time and effort (probably 6 months if not longer) is going to be spent to try to ensure the new line is reliable from day one. If not then TfL will be paying out a lot of cash to FCC and Southern for delays to services between Central London and Croydon. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
#3
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Tristán White wrote:
As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest) June 2010. What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme. Ultimately, the JLE project was "simpler" than the ELL Extension from an Engineering point of view, in that it's all new build, save for the junction at Green Park, so they could do a phased opening beginning at the Eastern end of the line. And if memory serves, the only "closure" (other than those caused by the regular signal failures) was the abandonment of Green Park - Charing Cross, with the Green Park - Waterloo section opening the following day. Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down. For the proposed services to operate, the line needs to be completely resignalled, the power supply beefed up (again!), stations (presumably) refurbished. In short, effectively a repeat of the last major closure. It remains to be seen if the heritage nuts moan about the Thames Tunnel again, thereby prolonging the closure... Cheers, Barry |
#4
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On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:13:03 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:01:21 -0600, "Tristán White" wrote: As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest) June 2010. What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme. Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down. AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then either. Wasn't the ELL line completely closed for a few years leading up to 1999 or so, I think it was to line the Thames Tunnel? Shame they didn't do any of this work then, but I suppose that although the extension was well into planning by 1999, they probably didn't know the full scope of works required. Anyway, it is at least the second time the ELL users have been shafted for several years in a row. Still, the finished line will probably be worth it for them! |
#5
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Yep, by 2010 the line will have been shut for 5 1/2 out of 15 years. I
moved to Rotherhithe during the last year of the previous closure. I was told by the estate agents that the replacements buses were more useful and reliable than the line ever was (but who can trust anything they say?). Anyway I don't remember where I read this but I was led to believe that during the last closure, the power supply was uprated and that the line was ready to work at 3rd or 4th rail electrification. If it needs resignalling then fine, let's just do it properly and not re-use old pneumatics from the central line.. (I know, it's going to be to NR standards not LU). I remember the morning the ELL re-opened in 1998. I was greeted by a signal failure notice and suspension of service. Some things never change. Mark. Barry Salter wrote: Tristán White wrote: As you will know, the line closes on 22 Dec 2007 until (at the earliest) June 2010. What I can't understand is why it needs to be down for so long. How long was the Jubilee Line down during the JLE inauguration? Not that long, and it seems to me that that is an even more complex scheme. Ultimately, the JLE project was "simpler" than the ELL Extension from an Engineering point of view, in that it's all new build, save for the junction at Green Park, so they could do a phased opening beginning at the Eastern end of the line. And if memory serves, the only "closure" (other than those caused by the regular signal failures) was the abandonment of Green Park - Charing Cross, with the Green Park - Waterloo section opening the following day. Two and a half years seems a long time to screw the good people of Wapping, Rotherhithe, Surrey Quays and New Cross and stick them on rail replacement buses. Could not the rest of the work be done while the ELL is running, and then shut the ELL down for say just 8 months or so while they link it all together? I mean, it seems such a long time for a line to be down. For the proposed services to operate, the line needs to be completely resignalled, the power supply beefed up (again!), stations (presumably) refurbished. In short, effectively a repeat of the last major closure. It remains to be seen if the heritage nuts moan about the Thames Tunnel again, thereby prolonging the closure... Cheers, Barry |
#6
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MJS wrote:
Yep, by 2010 the line will have been shut for 5 1/2 out of 15 years. I moved to Rotherhithe during the last year of the previous closure. I was told by the estate agents that the replacements buses were more useful and reliable than the line ever was (but who can trust anything they say?). Anyway I don't remember where I read this but I was led to believe that during the last closure, the power supply was uprated and that the line was ready to work at 3rd or 4th rail electrification. If it needs resignalling then fine, let's just do it properly and not re-use old pneumatics from the central line.. (I know, it's going to be to NR standards not LU). The uprating of the power supply during the last closure was to enable Class 465 "Networker" EMUs to run through, but it needs further uprating for the new, more powerful, Electrostars that will be running the service, and an increase to 16 trains per hour on the core route. Cheers, Barry |
#7
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Remember how long the Heathrow loop (Picadilly) closed for to allow
construction of the T5 branch? My guess is it's due to a total H&S phobia of trains moving anywhere near workers (of course you can have trucks reversing all over the place, but trains moving on a predetermined track, ooh no). |
#8
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![]() Paul Corfield wrote: AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could Why will the current rails need to be changed? Drop the centre rail and keep the outside rail. Done. not run on third rail power supply so you'd end up with no service then either. I don't know how much construction is going to be needed on the current ELL itself to cope with the new standards but I imagine a fair amount of supporting infrastructure will be needed. Given that LU and NR trains run together on certain sections of track already I can't see they'll need to change all that much. I suspect the real reason they're closing it is that it makes their life a bit easier , not because its really necessary (bit like the ELL extension as a whole) and yet again the long suffering overcharged commuter gets screwed. line is reliable from day one. If not then TfL will be paying out a lot of cash to FCC and Southern for delays to services between Central London and Croydon. More likely the other way around. FCC couldn't run the proverbial ****-up in a brewery without the beer being delayed going by what they've done to Thameslink and WAGN. B2003 |
#9
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![]() Barry Salter wrote: The uprating of the power supply during the last closure was to enable Class 465 "Networker" EMUs to run through, but it needs further uprating for the new, more powerful, Electrostars that will be running the service, and an increase to 16 trains per hour on the core route. I think you actually meant to write "more power hungry" rather than more powerful. Efficiency doesn't seem to have been in the brief when they were designed. B2003 |
#10
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![]() Boltar wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: AIUI the ELL is having its power supply, current rails and signalling all changed to match National Rail standards. This is not a small or quick job and would probably cost an awful lot more if attempted only in engineering hours. There would also come a point where LU stock could Why will the current rails need to be changed? Drop the centre rail and keep the outside rail. Done. Are the existing running rails set up to current return? If not they'll have to be adapted. Given that LU and NR trains run together on certain sections of track already I can't see they'll need to change all that much. Track that's been specially configured to allow LU and NR trains to run together. That isn't the case in the ELL. |
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