James Farrar wrote:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:25:46 +0000, asdf
wrote:

"Almost three times as many passengers can pass an Underground
payment gate using Oyster card as can using printed tickets -
40 a minute compared to 15 a minute."

That's funny - when using a paper ticket I just shove it straight
in, whereas with Oyster I hang back and wait for the previous
person to go through and the gates to close first, in case I pick
up a £4 charge.

Then you're wasting your time and throwing away a clear benefit of
Oyster. As soon as the light goes orange, you can touch in/out. As
soon as the light goes green, you can go through the gate, knowing
that your card has been read and accepted.

Not sure about that. I've been caught out in what I believe is this
scenario:

The person ahead of me has his ticket (paper or Oyster) rejected. The
light goes red, and the gate stays shut. I then arrive at the gate, see
that the light is (by then) orange, touch in my Oyster, and then realise
that there is a person trapped in front of me. But the gates then open
(for me), the person ahead of me goes through, and the gates then shut
before I can pass through. Further attempts to read my Oyster are
rejected.

Your advice should be to touch in on orange only if the light was
previously green, or if no-one is between you and the gate.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
snip But the gates then open (for me), the person ahead of me goes through, and the
gates then shut before I can pass through. Further attempts to read my Oyster are
rejected.

Oh yes, that's happened a lot - to me and others - around me when it's
very busy. The other problem is the people 'doubling up' deliberately,
as the new style gates are perfect at letting fare evaders through.
These are the same gates in use now on FCC GN (first being at Stevenage
and one other station). The evaders are already managing to get past
quite successfully, not helped by the fact that inspectors and other
staff will generally turn a blind eye to anyone they feel may assault
them. But that's a discussion best saved for another thread...!

To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has
signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I
look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone
6 too.

Jonathan

Paul Corfield wrote:
I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is
possible given the western sense of personal space.

So, why then did Kings Cross (and a few others) get the worlds slowest
ticket gates. The old gates are simple, you put the ticket in, the
ticket pops out, you grab and walk.

Kings Cross firstly hates paper tickets (I do a lot of out of boundary
x-london rail tickets) - Many gates don't take them, others are hard
work. And secondly, after you've taken the ticket, or touched an
oyster, the gate waits half a second before opening. I used to reguarly
walk into them! Now I conciously wait for the damn thing. Gates should
be getting faster and more reliable - Those at Kings Cross (and
everywhere else with that design) are much slower.

Why were they allowed to go into service?

What is planned to be done about it?

regards
HN28

"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
oups.com...


To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has
signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I
look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone
6 too.


Bear in mind one of the reasons the TOCs didn't go for Oyster is that the
government was pushing a different standardised smartcard (ITSO format),
and Oyster wasn't compatible with it.

Don't know what the current deal is on interoperability for smartcards,
though I think in the new SWT franchise for example they are not compelled
to introduce 'Oyster' as such, only a smartcard.

Paul

On 10 Jan 2007 14:25:04 -0800, wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong while 40 for Oyster only is pushing the upper limit of what is
possible given the western sense of personal space.

So, why then did Kings Cross (and a few others) get the worlds slowest
ticket gates. The old gates are simple, you put the ticket in, the
ticket pops out, you grab and walk.

Oh not again.

Kings Cross firstly hates paper tickets (I do a lot of out of boundary
x-london rail tickets) - Many gates don't take them, others are hard
work. And secondly, after you've taken the ticket, or touched an
oyster, the gate waits half a second before opening. I used to reguarly
walk into them! Now I conciously wait for the damn thing. Gates should
be getting faster and more reliable - Those at Kings Cross (and
everywhere else with that design) are much slower.

Why were they allowed to go into service?

No idea - I don't work on Prestige and haven't done for years.

What is planned to be done about it?

No idea - I don't work on Prestige and haven't done for years.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Scott wrote:

"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
oups.com...


To keep on topic, I'd like to see FCC sign up. I see Chiltern has
signed up (is it for the whole of their network?). In the long run, I
look forward to a standardised smartcard that will work outside of Zone
6 too.


Bear in mind one of the reasons the TOCs didn't go for Oyster is that the
government was pushing a different standardised smartcard (ITSO format),
and Oyster wasn't compatible with it.

Don't know what the current deal is on interoperability for smartcards,
though I think in the new SWT franchise for example they are not compelled
to introduce 'Oyster' as such, only a smartcard.

Paul

From the March '06 TfL press release about the new SWT franchise [1]:

"This means that from 2009, passengers on the on the South West Main
Line will be able to take Oyster ticketing [...]"

....and...

"The specification outlined demands that the successful bidder for the
franchise will:
* Provide Oyster validating or ITSO equipment at all stations on the
South West Main Line franchise by 2009"

However if you take a look at this May '06 TfL press release [2] you'll
see that there are moves to integrate the proprietary Oyster smart card
system with an ITSO system. This is from the end notes:

"The Department for Transport has agreed to fund for upgrades to
existing Oyster equipment in London to make Oyster gates and validators
on the Underground, at major rail termini and on the buses, accept
basic alternative Smartcard (ITSO) products. The expected cost is
around £19m."

Exactly how Oyster and ITSO smartcards will work together in practice
isn't clear - not least because it probably hasn't yet been worked out!

[1]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=742
[2]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=776

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:42:36 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:12:17 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:51:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:54:52 +0000, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:53 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:08:04 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote:

TfL's offer to the National Rail (NR) Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to
fund the £20 million cost of installing equipment to allow Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG, a.k.a. Pre-Pay) isn't open ended, and the deadline -
the 31st of January - is fast approaching. It would appear the Mayor is keen
to bounce the TOCs into signing up to the deal.

See this TfL press release:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent....asp?prID=1037

The full release on the Mayor's site is a tad more revealing and also
includes a wonderfully inaccurate statistic about gate throughput.

I can see how they came up with the numbers, but it certainly doesn't
apply to the newest gates (as at KXSP, Marylebone NR etc.)

You can? Please tell me.

Hmm, on further review...

I did wonder if I'd missed something.

I know what the numbers are as I used to test the gates, know the design
spec and used to calculate all the gate quantities for LU stations. I
can tell you that 15 people per minute for magnetic tickets is utterly
wrong

That is too low. It doesn't take 4s to activate a gate.

25ppm is the planning capacity per walkway.

In which case, is it simply a case of someone's typoed "15" for "25"
and the hierarchy has jumped on it?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:48:09 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Your advice should be to touch in on orange only if the light was
previously green, or if no-one is between you and the gate.

Granted. I rather assume that people will act to curtail faredodgers'
activoty rather than facilitate it.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...


From the March '06 TfL press release about the new SWT franchise [1]:

"This means that from 2009, passengers on the on the South West Main
Line will be able to take Oyster ticketing [...]"

....and...

"The specification outlined demands that the successful bidder for the
franchise will:
* Provide Oyster validating or ITSO equipment at all stations on the
South West Main Line franchise by 2009"

However if you take a look at this May '06 TfL press release [2] you'll
see that there are moves to integrate the proprietary Oyster smart card
system with an ITSO system. This is from the end notes:

"The Department for Transport has agreed to fund for upgrades to
existing Oyster equipment in London to make Oyster gates and validators
on the Underground, at major rail termini and on the buses, accept
basic alternative Smartcard (ITSO) products. The expected cost is
around £19m."

Exactly how Oyster and ITSO smartcards will work together in practice
isn't clear - not least because it probably hasn't yet been worked out!


Sounds like much more convergence is happening then - in the latest SWT mag
they still simply refer to smartcards - I suspect that some negotiation will
take place and the name 'Oyster' will survive - a bit like Mr Hoover's
invention....

Paul

work. And secondly, after you've taken the ticket, or touched an
oyster, the gate waits half a second before opening. I used to reguarly
walk into them! Now I conciously wait for the damn thing. Gates should

The new gates are very slow at all locations. AIUI the old gates were air
operated but after station refurbishment these are replaced by the slower
electric ones.

In quiet station times you can easily validate and get to the gates before
they've even started to move. The card reading process is really quick, you
can place and remove the card quite quickly but the return signal and
movement of the paddles is abysmal. It's a fare dodgers paradise, I've no
idea why they didn't pick up on this when they were testing or stop the
rollout of the damn things until it was improved.

D