On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:12:31 -0000,
Nicks wrote:

There is also the issue of physical cash - going cashless removes
considerable security risks for staff handling coins/notes.

Except that I typically top up my oyster card with cash. I'd use the
auto-topup except that I use the tube so rarely that I've not yet
managed to be able to predict when/where I'll next use it.

I also have a worry that, because I use oyster so rarely, there's a
possibility I could lose my card and have it being used fraudulently for
a month before I got my visa bill and saw the problem with auto-topup
although I think it sends you an email when auto-topup is triggered and
I keep my oyster card with my goldcard so I'm unlikely to lose one
without the other and I would notice my goldcard being lost so I'm
prepared to take the risk with auto-topup

But why can't you just go into a station and then straight back out
without incurring a charge? On one occasion I spent as long on the tube
as I would have done walking because I entered the gates before I
realized there were line problems: stupid, I know, that I wouldn't just
write off the 1.50 and instead struggled with multiple changes at packed
stations, but it's a psychological thing - if I'm paying then I expect
to get to use it.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Tim Woodall typed


I also have a worry that, because I use oyster so rarely, there's a
possibility I could lose my card and have it being used fraudulently for
a month before I got my visa bill and saw the problem with auto-topup
although I think it sends you an email when auto-topup is triggered and
I keep my oyster card with my goldcard so I'm unlikely to lose one
without the other and I would notice my goldcard being lost so I'm
prepared to take the risk with auto-topup

If you register your card with Oyster online, you can keep an eye on it
from your computer.

I have just done this with my ancient ex bus pass.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In message .com,
solar penguin writes

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

"solar penguin" typed

Let's hope so. With a bit of luck we can can stop this stupid scheme
to con us into paying for faulty, unreliable cards that just swallow
your money and then break down!

I can't say I've had any trouble getting money/credit refunded when my
registered Oysters have failed.

You must have some really good local newsagents. Neither of the ones
near me could do anything to help when my card broke down!

It seems entirely wrong that
they should pay TfL's punitive cash fares.

If TfL just reduced the cash fares to a reasonable level, no-one would
need to bother with this stupid Oyster business in the first place!

How about ringing the help desk when u have trouble with your card
--
martyn dawe

wrote:
Not every Londoner as a underground near them so they use a Overground
which don't take Oyster card pay as you go so we don't save on the cost
of one-day travel with a Oyster card pay as you go,we have to use Cash
fares.
So much for the Oyster Revolution in London

It was worse though with the paper system because you could not buy a
one-day travelcard at a bus-stop so you had to go to a newsagent.

Now we happen to live right near 2 bus stops but neither of them have
travel agents right outside so if we wanted to get a one-day travelcard
or one-day bus-pass it meant walking to a newsagent a distance away or
even driving to one to start the journey.

At least with Oyster you can start your journey on the bus and just
wait until capping occurs.

Plus with a paper travelcard you had to know in advance if it was worth
getting, whereas with Oyster pre-pay, if your plans change and you
don't reach the cap, you don't pay for what you don't use.

Of course the OP's issue was with National Rail which is a problem at
the moment but you can buy one-day paper travelcards at such stations
anyway so Oyster hasn't made it any worse really. It would be useful if
you could buy one-day travelcards for Oyster online or even with some
kind of mobile-phone service.

Is there a ticket machine right by either of the bus stops? You can buy a
one-day ticket from those.

How much does a one-day bus pass cost these days, anyway?

"Earl Purple" wrote in message
ps.com...

Now we happen to live right near 2 bus stops but neither of them have
travel agents right outside so if we wanted to get a one-day travelcard
or one-day bus-pass it meant walking to a newsagent a distance away or
even driving to one to start the journey.

wrote:
Is there a ticket machine right by either of the bus stops? You can buy a
one-day ticket from those.

No there isn't, but with pre-pay now it is a problem only if we intend
to use national rail at some point.

Sometimes one may ride without paying because there is simply no
convenient way to do so. On one occasion a couple of years ago I did
just that from Pudding Mill Lane to Canary Wharf because there was no
option to renew a season. As it happens I did end up "paying" for the
journey later but had to go to Canary Wharf Jubilee Line station to do
so.

On another occasion I free-rode from Finchley Road & Frognal because
there was no option to renew a season there and didn't want to head to
Finchley Road tube and back to do it. I think that journey was also
probably paid for when I eventually got somewhere that I could renew
the season.

Also once went Moorgate to Bowes Park on pre-pay then walked to Bounds
Green to renew the season that would start the next day and touched
"out" there by reaching over the barrier that opens. So once again the
journey was actually paid for. Yes I could have changed at Finsbury
Park and headed to Bounds Green on the Piccadilly Line but I didn't
want to.

wrote:

Is there a ticket machine right by either of the bus stops? You can buy a
one-day ticket from those.

How much does a one-day bus pass cost these days, anyway?


One-day bus passes cost £3.50, and in addition to participating
newsagents and all Tube ticket offices they are also available from the
roadside ticket machines at bus stops (you'll need the exact change
though). For comparison the Oyster daily cap for bus use only is £3.

Earl Purple wrote:

wrote:
Is there a ticket machine right by either of the bus stops? You can buy a
one-day ticket from those.

No there isn't, but with pre-pay now it is a problem only if we intend
to use national rail at some point.

Sometimes one may ride without paying because there is simply no
convenient way to do so. On one occasion a couple of years ago I did
just that from Pudding Mill Lane to Canary Wharf because there was no
option to renew a season. As it happens I did end up "paying" for the
journey later but had to go to Canary Wharf Jubilee Line station to do
so.

By the by Canary Wharf DLR station's information booth (on the middle
platform) can sell you tickets and it 'does' Oyster, though I suspect
it might be akin to a newsagent and thus can't sell you single tickets.
It can also sell you tickets to West End shows.


On another occasion I free-rode from Finchley Road & Frognal because
there was no option to renew a season there and didn't want to head to
Finchley Road tube and back to do it. I think that journey was also
probably paid for when I eventually got somewhere that I could renew
the season.

Also once went Moorgate to Bowes Park on pre-pay then walked to Bounds
Green to renew the season that would start the next day and touched
"out" there by reaching over the barrier that opens. So once again the
journey was actually paid for. Yes I could have changed at Finsbury
Park and headed to Bounds Green on the Piccadilly Line but I didn't
want to.


Though in the last example you only paid FCC for *part* of your journey
- the Moorgate to Finsbury Park portion. The Oyster system would have
allocated the rest of the journey and hence the rest of the revenue to
LU for a Piccadilly line journey from FP to Bounds Green. The Finsbury
Park to Bowes Park portion of your journey on FCC was therefore not
paid for.

And before anyone says anything yes I'm sure the Oyster PAYG revenue
sharing arrangements are far more complex than outlined above, but the
point stands.

Of course it's about time Oyster PAYG was valid on the FCC Great
Northern lines, and indeed everywhere else, but that's a different
topic that's in almost perpetual discussion here on utl!

Mizter T wrote:
Though in the last example you only paid FCC for *part* of your journey
- the Moorgate to Finsbury Park portion. The Oyster system would have
allocated the rest of the journey and hence the rest of the revenue to
LU for a Piccadilly line journey from FP to Bounds Green. The Finsbury
Park to Bowes Park portion of your journey on FCC was therefore not
paid for.

Why should it assume I used that line at all? I might have taken the
Northern Line to Kings Cross then the Piccadilly Line from there.

And if I have an Oyster season, how would it allocate that?

What might be useful, but I don't think it happens, would be that if
you buy an Oyster Season ticket which would have covered any journeys
you have already made that day, those journeys are automatically
refunded. eg I get a bus to the station (paying £1) then buy a season
ticket, the £1 would automatically go back onto the Oyster pre-pay.

That would have solved the problem of the journey from Pudding Mill
Lane to Canary Wharf, where I could have touched in and out, and
subsequently had the fare automatically refunded when I bought an
Oyster season later the same day.

Earl Purple wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Though in the last example you only paid FCC for *part* of your journey
- the Moorgate to Finsbury Park portion. The Oyster system would have
allocated the rest of the journey and hence the rest of the revenue to
LU for a Piccadilly line journey from FP to Bounds Green. The Finsbury
Park to Bowes Park portion of your journey on FCC was therefore not
paid for.

Why should it assume I used that line at all? I might have taken the
Northern Line to Kings Cross then the Piccadilly Line from there.

True - the two most obvious routes for making such a journey are
basically either:
(1) by Underground all the way via Kings Cross, then on the Picc, or
Vic to FP and then Picc to Bounds Green
(2) or via the FCC Great Northern line then change at FP to the Picc
(or FCC GN to Highbury & Islington, Vic to FP, Picc to Bounds Green for
those who like cross-platform interchanges).

The exact way revenue is allocated will be very complex, but I'm sure
that assumptions regarding most-likely routes taken will be a factor.
Thus the Oyster system would make an assumption you've taken one of the
two routes above. How the money is actually split is a dark art, and
I'm sure multiple other factors come into play here (e.g. perhaps
whether the journey was made at the weekend or not is a factor, as
during the w/e there's no FCC GN service into Moorgate).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go whatsoever, all I was doing was
just pointing out that it is incorrect to say that you had paid for the
whole journey you actually made.


And if I have an Oyster season, how would it allocate that?

More black magic. Seriously, there are very sophisticated and complex
formulas for the apportionment of money from the sale of Travelcards.
Whether usage statistics of Travelcards loaded on Oyster is part of
this calculation I don't know - I guess it could be, but remember that
National Rail journeys in London don't involve passing through gates so
such statistics would only be part of the overall picture. Holders of
printed season Travelcard holders are sent surveys to complete, whether
this happens with holders of season Travelcards on Oyster I don't know.
The results of these surveys are presumably factored in.


What might be useful, but I don't think it happens, would be that if
you buy an Oyster Season ticket which would have covered any journeys
you have already made that day, those journeys are automatically
refunded. eg I get a bus to the station (paying £1) then buy a season
ticket, the £1 would automatically go back onto the Oyster pre-pay.

That would have solved the problem of the journey from Pudding Mill
Lane to Canary Wharf, where I could have touched in and out, and
subsequently had the fare automatically refunded when I bought an
Oyster season later the same day.


I absolutely agree that such a facility would be really neat, I and
many others would find it very useful.

Perhaps, however, it is more complicated to implement than at first
seems - more complicated scenarios exist where a passenger has been
travelling all day all over the LU and bus network, perhaps hitting a
daily capping level but also having made peak-time LU journey(s) that
didn't contribute to the off-peak cap.

Calculating what should be discounted from the season Travelcard price
might thus prove difficult, especially if the passenger was purchasing
a season Travelcard that didn't cover all the zones in which they had
travelled during the day - if this was the case then to discount the
appropriate amount could involve the need for revised daily caps to be
imposed retrospectively.

If there was some rule about the discount for just one journey then
this would then be unfair on someone who had started and finished at
stations where they couldn't renew their season Travelcard.

If there are any such considerations then perhaps it is just easier to
not attempt to implement such a facility - i.e. keep it simple!

In addition remember that you can buy season Travelcards to collect
when passing through a specified LU or DLR station - you need to order
the day before and IIRC the ticket will be available for virtual
collection for seven days. Plus you can also buy season Travelcards on
Oyster in advance from both Tube ticket offices and newsagents,
something like up to 30 days before the start date (at least from Tube
ticket offices - not sure of what's on offer from newsagents).