David of Broadway wrote:
Harry G wrote:

I'm a Londoner and have no problem using buses here - but if I'm in a
strange city I'll take the metro or a tram by preference. Something
psychlogical to do with the fact that metro or tram services can't
deviate from their tracks and (usually!) come back exactly the same way
they went, point (b) in Dave's post.

Guess you've never been to New York!

Nope!

Just yesterday we had:

Southbound 1 trains operated express from 137th Street to 96th Street
and again express from 34th Street to 14th Street, where they terminated
(running back north from the southbound express track). But 2 and 3
trains, which normally run express between 96th Street and Chambers
Street, ran local instead. Shuttle buses ran between Chambers Street
and South Ferry on the 1.

I saw an interesting programme about the South Ferry 1 line terminal
reconstruction on a cable channel here the other night - amazed that
such a cramped and awkward operating layout has survived until now.

The 5 ran local in both directions in Manhattan, terminating at Brooklyn
Bridge instead of Bowling Green.

[snip various other mind-boggling subway re-routings]

From this I guess that the track layouts, connections and switches on
the NY Subway are more like a tramway (with many connections not used
for normal service) rather than the London Underground (with relative
rare non-service connections between lines) - I can't imagine LU being
able to operate anywhere near this sort of revised service.

The most unusual diversion I can think of is when Bakerloo line
(Stanmore branch) services were diverted over the Metropolitan line
south of Finchley Road into the terminal platforms at Baker Street -
this would have been around 1975/6, when the junctions for the future
Jubilee line were being constructed.

L trains ran in two segments, split at Broadway Junction. Also, the
brand new PA/CIS system on the L (essentially equivalent to the
next-train indicators that you've had for, oh, a century or so) was
undergoing testing, with sometimes humorous results.

Sounds something like the 06.66 to Hampton Court via Guildford with
Restaurant/Buffet that was reported on the London Waterloo indicator
board many years ago :-)

Incidentally, take a look at the TfL tube ETA online site for
interesting information - it's essentially giving signallers'
destinations (e.g. Northumberland Park Staff, Victoria Sidings etc for
the Victoria line) rather than what would be displayed to the public on
the platform:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/travelinf...tationCode=EUS

One that I just noticed for the Northern line, King's Cross southbound:
"Euston (To Picc.) Bank Branch" (which I am sure is not in public
service, and probably would just be described as 'Not in Service' on
the platform!)

Paul Corfield wrote:

this temporary "chopping and changing" of routes and then the wholesale
re-ordering of the Subway service patterns every so often is something
that I struggle to comprehend.

How on earth do New Yorkers cope with this scale of change -
particularly to stopping patterns? Does it cause real problems or is it
just one of those things that people now accept?

From experience, it is annoying, but the benefits of having night
service and being able to route around problems are well worth it.
--
Michael Hoffman

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:56:04 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message . com, Neil
Williams writes

Interesting - and I guess you probably know best by your job - but my
experience is that people will use the Tube as it's relatively easy to
understand -
Oh, absolutely.

The main reason that people have for not using the Tube in my experience
is fear of actually being in enclosed spaces underground.
(Interestingly, I've never had anyone cite fear of terrorism as a reason
for avoiding it.)

indeed, the geographical knowledge of London by a lot of
people I know is largely based (inaccurately, of course) on the Tube
map.
Yes and when they *do* use it, they usually comment on how easy it is to
understand for that reason.

During one of the anti-war demonstrations last year, my coach was unable
to get back to a pickup near Parliament Square and I took a group of
about 15 back to the Tower Thistle hotel on the District Line [1].
They were an elderly group who wouldn't have dreamed of doing so "on
their own". They actually loved it and to my amusement later told
other people in the group that it was one of the highlights of their
weekend in London!

Not all surprised to hear this.

"You know what we did? - we climbed Mount Everest. Well not really but
we did go for a ride on the Tube and survived."

I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway
in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that
is?"
"Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't
that bad."

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Definitely (to doing it how the residents do). I had great fun in Paris
going round by myself for two days - the world was my Mobilis...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 08:45:18AM -0800, Jon wrote:

A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main
London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was
indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading
for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at
all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here
may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few
wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so
prefered a taxi transfer.

Of course, another issue is that few wheelchair users *exist*, and those
who do exist might very well like to use the bus to get from one station
to another if only they could get on the trains in the first place.
Given that they can't get on the trains (either because of steps in and
out of the train or steps in and out of the stations at either end of
their journey) they have to start off using a car and it would really be
a bit silly to join two car journeys together with a bus in the middle!

It would be interesting to see just how much money TfL has spent on
making buses etc wheelchair-friendly, and whether it would have just
been cheaper to give them free taxi rides.

And remember, most (all?) buses now have low floors, so a dedicated
low-floor route wending its way around all the stations is no longer
needed.

I think the economics of accessible buses actually stack up quite well.
There's no additional procurement cost beyond that of replacing aging
vehicles, because new vehicles are low-floor as standard anyway.
Meanwhile, provision of "free taxi rides" was essentially done via the
Dial-a-Ride service, which is extremely expensive (per passenger-km) to
run. Having the mainstream bus fleet accessible to wheelchair users will
*save* TfL money with lower demand for Dial-a-Ride.

Additionally, low-floor buses are much more attractive to customers with
prams, pushchairs and heavy luggage, and so will attract more custom
from those groups, further enhancing the business case.

The economics of step-free access to the Underground are somewhat
different because of the capital cost involved. Given that, step-free
access is usually incorporated into rebuilds that would have happened
anyway, and as with buses, new custom does not just come from wheelchair
users but also from those with prams, pushchairs, luggage etc.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Paul Corfield wrote:

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

It is - but it feels very, very safe (as does the whole city for its
size).

Neil

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:49:59 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Perhaps LU could pick up a few tips on how to get that extra bit of
capacity out of the system? ;-)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott-5...n/set-1713171/

In article , Paul Corfield
writes
I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway
in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that
is?"
"Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't
that bad."

I had something similar some years ago from a New Yorker friend:

"What did you do yesterday evening?"
I tell him
"You rode ... on the subway ... for *FUN*?!?!"

[I had a local enthusiast as a guide, but I'd got to NY for both
evenings via local train in New Jersey and then PATH.]

I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Very true. And then there's the Bucuresti trams. And, some years ago,
the Leningrad trolleybuses. 4 kopeks flat fare, with an "honesty box"
for payment.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the
Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how
dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell
the tale. It wasn't that bad."
We had exactly the same reaction when we were in New York. I've been
twice and on neither occasion did I feel any more unsafe than I would
have done on the Tube. In fact I felt safer than on some Birmingham
buses at night! (Though the Birmingham Metro, with a conductor always
present feels especially safe late at night.)

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do -
Yes and I feel the same about that, however bizarre that might seem to
you reading this here.

In mitigation, I can tell you that I try very hard when showing people
London (or anywhere else) to talk a lot about life there, experiences,
background and so on and not just - say - history. But using a real
transport system is a great way to see somewhere. My interest in trams
has taken me to some very surprising bits of actually rather famous
cities over the years!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

[snip]

In mitigation, I can tell you that I try very hard when showing people
London (or anywhere else) to talk a lot about life there, experiences,
background and so on and not just - say - history. But using a real
transport system is a great way to see somewhere. My interest in trams
has taken me to some very surprising bits of actually rather famous
cities over the years!

My wife alwaus enjoys tacking a tram ride just to see where it goes. As you
say you do see some surprising bits of cities you wouldn't normally visit.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway
in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that
is?"
"Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't
that bad."

My fellow pax on the flight to Porto were genuinely concerned at my decision
to travel into the centre by Metro. I suspect that when I get round to
revisiting Berlin, there will be more concerned pax urging that I avoid the
S-Bahn.

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

The Rough Guides concluded some time ago that the top of their 10 sights for
Lisbon was to ride the 28 tram. The description started "Avoid guided
tours".

--
Tim

"The manners of capitalism improve. The morals may not" - J K Galbraith