Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Paul Corfield
writes
I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway
in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that
is?"
"Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't
that bad."

I had something similar some years ago from a New Yorker friend:

"What did you do yesterday evening?"
I tell him
"You rode ... on the subway ... for *FUN*?!?!"

[I had a local enthusiast as a guide, but I'd got to NY for both
evenings via local train in New Jersey and then PATH.]

It might have been what they considered your odd choice of leisure
activity, rather than concerns for your personal security, that
elicited that type of response!


I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Very true. And then there's the Bucuresti trams. And, some years ago,
the Leningrad trolleybuses. 4 kopeks flat fare, with an "honesty box"
for payment.


Did you manage to gauge how honest passengers were?

In article , Tim Fenton
writes
The Rough Guides concluded some time ago that the top of their 10 sights for
Lisbon was to ride the 28 tram.

However, they seem to have something against the 46 (IIRC) bus in Rome.
The description - repeated more than once - says it's only used by
perverts and pickpockets. I'm wondering if one of their investigators
got groped.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:25:22 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:

the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-)

Ah yes. I understand that the Japanese have some novel ideas about the
relationship between rolling stock and permanent way:

http://urchin.earth.li/photopub/disp...&thumb=640x640

VBG
--
Paul C

On 15 Jan 2007 17:48:36 -0800, "Neil Williams"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

It is - but it feels very, very safe (as does the whole city for its
size).

Oh completely agreed even when as a westerner you stand out like a sore
thumb amongst the huge crowds of Japanese. Wonderfully friendly and
helpful people too who will always make an effort even when the language
differences mean you don't stand a chance of having any sort of
conversation.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:46:27 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:49:59 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Perhaps LU could pick up a few tips on how to get that extra bit of
capacity out of the system? ;-)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott-5...n/set-1713171/

There are some other good pictures in that series.

Having looked at the comments there are some YouTube links and this
shows the early rush hour apparently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9E7J7MLko4&NR

as it's not very busy.

I never used the subway at rush hour but did have to use a JR train from
Shinjuku to Ikebukuro. That was an experience - especially as I had
luggage! Ikebukuro is also the busiest or second busiest (I forget
which) station in Tokyo - I don't think I have ever seen quite so many
people in what is not a huge amount of space. Still it's all very well
organised and the commuters are all very compliant so it works. I'm not
at all sure that London would tolerate quite the same conditions as
Tokyo although I appreciate it's not far off in a number of places.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:10:21 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the
Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how
dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell
the tale. It wasn't that bad."
We had exactly the same reaction when we were in New York. I've been
twice and on neither occasion did I feel any more unsafe than I would
have done on the Tube. In fact I felt safer than on some Birmingham
buses at night! (Though the Birmingham Metro, with a conductor always
present feels especially safe late at night.)

Well a friend and I even used the late night subway service to get from
a bar in the lower east side back to the hotel near Madison Square
Garden. The system was very quiet but it seemed an eminently sensible
way to get around.

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do -

Yes and I feel the same about that, however bizarre that might seem to
you reading this here.

Not at all bizarre. If you're interested in a place or the people then
the best way to experience it is to put yourself in a position where you
might "collide" with day to day life. Strange things can happen but
generally human kindness shines through despite language and cultural
differences.

In mitigation, I can tell you that I try very hard when showing people
London (or anywhere else) to talk a lot about life there, experiences,
background and so on and not just - say - history. But using a real
transport system is a great way to see somewhere. My interest in trams
has taken me to some very surprising bits of actually rather famous
cities over the years!

Well trams are a great way to see a city as their permanence gives an
added reassurance to getting about with some confidence. Passenger
information is also usually a bit better which helps as well.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:47:48 -0000, "Tim Fenton"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway
in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that
is?"
"Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't
that bad."

My fellow pax on the flight to Porto were genuinely concerned at my decision
to travel into the centre by Metro. I suspect that when I get round to
revisiting Berlin, there will be more concerned pax urging that I avoid the
S-Bahn.

How else does one travel into the centre?

I was in Singapore over Christmas and I opted to use the MRT into town.
I knew where my hotel was so accepted there was a walk the other end
plus a change of line in the centre. However I figured without the
bizarre set up whereby the Airport line is operated entirely as a stub
branch with no through trains. The Airport station itself was huge and
visually stunning. Getting a smartcard ticket was fine but there was
nothing to suggest there was no direct service. I should also mention
that the MRT only serves Terminal 2 so I'd already had a trek from one
terminal to another to even find the station.

Still off we went and two stops further on most of the passengers get
off - I assumed they were changing to take the other branch of the East
West line. A train for that direction arrived but no one moved and it
was at this point that I realised my train was going no further. I then
got off and waited for the connection to town. This, of course, was busy
so it was stand the whole way and it got progressively busier and busier
and my connecting train was very busy too. Singapore do not manage the
HK trick which is to schedule trains at certain points so that the cross
platform interchange is out of one train and straight into a waiting /
arriving train. MRT services seem designed to just miss each other which
was also very frustrating.

Needless to say on the way back to the airport I took a taxi!

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

The Rough Guides concluded some time ago that the top of their 10 sights for
Lisbon was to ride the 28 tram. The description started "Avoid guided
tours".

Not done Lisbon yet but I know a fair bit about the tram system and it's
clearly an experience not to be missed - despite the modernisation and
upgrading that is going on.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:05:57 +0000, Dave A wrote:

I think the economics of accessible buses actually stack up quite well.
There's no additional procurement cost beyond that of replacing aging
vehicles, because new vehicles are low-floor as standard anyway.
Meanwhile, provision of "free taxi rides" was essentially done via the
Dial-a-Ride service, which is extremely expensive (per passenger-km) to
run. Having the mainstream bus fleet accessible to wheelchair users will
*save* TfL money with lower demand for Dial-a-Ride.

Additionally, low-floor buses are much more attractive to customers with
prams, pushchairs and heavy luggage, and so will attract more custom
from those groups, further enhancing the business case.

The economics of step-free access to the Underground are somewhat
different because of the capital cost involved. Given that, step-free
access is usually incorporated into rebuilds that would have happened
anyway, and as with buses, new custom does not just come from wheelchair
users but also from those with prams, pushchairs, luggage etc.

An interesting overview. I'm almost tempted to post this to a non usenet
group to watch it be torn to shreds by the anti TfL, anti low floor bus
brigade but I won't. I'm not sure I could cope with the mental stress
and you won't be able to enjoy the fun ;-)

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 16 Jan 2007 04:40:10 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:


Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

snip
Very true. And then there's the Bucuresti trams. And, some years ago,
the Leningrad trolleybuses. 4 kopeks flat fare, with an "honesty box"
for payment.


Did you manage to gauge how honest passengers were?

If it was in the "good old days" there was probably someone else
already doing that.

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:46:27 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:49:59 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air
conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel
about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an
experience ;-)

Perhaps LU could pick up a few tips on how to get that extra bit of
capacity out of the system? ;-)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott-5...n/set-1713171/

There are some other good pictures in that series.

Having looked at the comments there are some YouTube links and this
shows the early rush hour apparently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9E7J7MLko4&NR

as it's not very busy.

I never used the subway at rush hour but did have to use a JR train from
Shinjuku to Ikebukuro. That was an experience - especially as I had
luggage! Ikebukuro is also the busiest or second busiest (I forget
which) station in Tokyo - I don't think I have ever seen quite so many
people in what is not a huge amount of space. Still it's all very well
organised and the commuters are all very compliant so it works. I'm not
at all sure that London would tolerate quite the same conditions as
Tokyo although I appreciate it's not far off in a number of places.

That's pretty busy.

That said getting on some bendy-buses in the early evening peak isn't
dissimilar!