wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
Why does the north east corner suffer from a lack of customers yet the
NW,
SW and SE do fine for numbers? Any ideas? Could it mean the lack of
passenger numbers further closes in the North East corner?

Both central and district lines are still reasonably well used until at
least zone 4. And south east London is barely served at all. So I'm not
exactly clear on what you could mean.


I think the OP might be driving at the fact that North East London (and West
Essex) has other lines that go to Stratford and Liverpool Street, just like
the Central Line, but they do it in less time.

If I was living in that part of the country, I doubt that the Central would
be my standard commuting option, and even if my final destination was a
central station west of Liverpool Street, I'd probably only change onto it
there.

I'd probably need to live right next door to somewhere like Roding Valley
for it to be worth using - and maybe that's why it's the lightest-used
station, because only those in the immediate vicinity find it worthwhile.

As a route into London, it's not *that* useful. If the stations in the area
were better connected to a bigger variety of destinations (e.g.
Chelsea-Hackney line taking the southern part of the loop, and Victoria line
Whipps Cross-Woodford extenstion taking the northern part) then traffic
would likely increase.

BTN

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
Why does the north east corner suffer from a lack of customers yet the
NW,
SW and SE do fine for numbers? Any ideas? Could it mean the lack of
passenger numbers further closes in the North East corner?

Both central and district lines are still reasonably well used until at
least zone 4. And south east London is barely served at all. So I'm not
exactly clear on what you could mean.


I think the OP might be driving at the fact that North East London (and West
Essex) has other lines that go to Stratford and Liverpool Street, just like
the Central Line, but they do it in less time.

If I was living in that part of the country, I doubt that the Central would
be my standard commuting option, and even if my final destination was a
central station west of Liverpool Street, I'd probably only change onto it
there.

I'd probably need to live right next door to somewhere like Roding Valley
for it to be worth using - and maybe that's why it's the lightest-used
station, because only those in the immediate vicinity find it worthwhile.

As a route into London, it's not *that* useful. If the stations in the area
were better connected to a bigger variety of destinations (e.g.
Chelsea-Hackney line taking the southern part of the loop, and Victoria line
Whipps Cross-Woodford extenstion taking the northern part) then traffic
would likely increase.



You may have been fooled by the shape of the Underground map into
thinking that the Central Line goes very far east. It is basically a
bit east of north (about as east as the Edgware branch is west), but
the map has to fill in that top right corner. It goes in a different
direction from trains into Liverpool Street until it joins up at
Stratford. Are you suggesting driving from Woodford to Ilford or
something?

The line from Chingford to Liverpool Street is nearer, but it's not
very fast and by the time you'd driven or bussed to, say, Wood Street,
you'd probably have reached Liverpool Street on the Central Line.

If you get on at South Woodford in the morning rush, it is already
standing room only.

"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...

You may have been fooled by the shape of the Underground map into
thinking that the Central Line goes very far east. It is basically a
bit east of north (about as east as the Edgware branch is west), but
the map has to fill in that top right corner. It goes in a different
direction from trains into Liverpool Street until it joins up at
Stratford. Are you suggesting driving from Woodford to Ilford or
something?


Unlikely, but if my nearest Central Line station was, say, Newbury Park or
Barkingside I'd be highly likely to use Ilford instead.

I was thinking more of people who live farther out, who would have to drive
/somewhere/ to get onto the system. Given a choice, and assuming
near-equidistance, I'd rather drive to Shenfield/Harold Wood/Romford or
wherever than Epping or Hainault etc.

BTN

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...

You may have been fooled by the shape of the Underground map into
thinking that the Central Line goes very far east. It is basically a
bit east of north (about as east as the Edgware branch is west), but
the map has to fill in that top right corner. It goes in a different
direction from trains into Liverpool Street until it joins up at
Stratford. Are you suggesting driving from Woodford to Ilford or
something?


Unlikely, but if my nearest Central Line station was, say, Newbury Park or
Barkingside I'd be highly likely to use Ilford instead.

I was thinking more of people who live farther out, who would have to drive
/somewhere/ to get onto the system. Given a choice, and assuming
near-equidistance, I'd rather drive to Shenfield/Harold Wood/Romford or
wherever than Epping or Hainault etc.


Equidistant between Ilford and Barkingside and wanting to get to
Liverpool Street, maybe I would. Living near Barkingside or wanting to
get to Oxford Circus, I don't think I would. Barkingside to Ilford is
a time-consuming drive or bus ride through lots of traffic (and parking
at the other end if by car).

The real issue is that these places aren't really all that close
together or fast or convenient to travel between. Barkingside to
Ilford is a couple of miles through heavy traffic. Further out, Epping
to Shenfield is ten miles as the crow flies and no fast road between.

And the other point is that the Central Line is standing room only from
fairly far out despite the much more frequent service than that into
Liverpool Street. I think the assumptions of the original message were
false (as far as I can understand them).

MIG wrote:
Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...
You may have been fooled by the shape of the Underground map into
thinking that the Central Line goes very far east. It is basically a
bit east of north (about as east as the Edgware branch is west), but
the map has to fill in that top right corner. It goes in a different
direction from trains into Liverpool Street until it joins up at
Stratford. Are you suggesting driving from Woodford to Ilford or
something?

Unlikely, but if my nearest Central Line station was, say, Newbury Park or
Barkingside I'd be highly likely to use Ilford instead.

I was thinking more of people who live farther out, who would have to drive
/somewhere/ to get onto the system. Given a choice, and assuming
near-equidistance, I'd rather drive to Shenfield/Harold Wood/Romford or
wherever than Epping or Hainault etc.


Equidistant between Ilford and Barkingside and wanting to get to
Liverpool Street, maybe I would. Living near Barkingside or wanting to
get to Oxford Circus, I don't think I would. Barkingside to Ilford is
a time-consuming drive or bus ride through lots of traffic (and parking
at the other end if by car).

The real issue is that these places aren't really all that close
together or fast or convenient to travel between. Barkingside to
Ilford is a couple of miles through heavy traffic. Further out, Epping
to Shenfield is ten miles as the crow flies and no fast road between.

And the other point is that the Central Line is standing room only from
fairly far out despite the much more frequent service than that into
Liverpool Street. I think the assumptions of the original message were
false (as far as I can understand them).

I think the original assumption is false.

Central line stations from Leyton to Woodford inclusive, and from
Wanstead to Hainault inclusive (i.e. those within Greater London) had an
average annual usage of 3.007Mppa (million passengers per year) in 2005.
Great Eastern ("one") stations from Maryland to Harold Wood inclusive
(those within Greater London) had an average annual usage of 1.730Mppa
in 2004/5.

On the Central line, usage is particularly high at Leyton (9.9Mppa),
Leytonstone (8Mppa), with another "band" of stations used by 3-4Mppa
annually at South Woodford, Woodford and Gants Hill.

On the Great Eastern, usage peaks fairly obviously at Romford (5.1Mppa)
and Ilford (2.9Mppa), but all other stations showed usage of under 2Mppa
(dropping to 0.2Mppa at Maryland).

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
Why does the north east corner suffer from a lack of customers yet the
NW,
SW and SE do fine for numbers? Any ideas? Could it mean the lack of
passenger numbers further closes in the North East corner?

Both central and district lines are still reasonably well used until at
least zone 4. And south east London is barely served at all. So I'm not
exactly clear on what you could mean.


I think the OP might be driving at the fact that North East London (and West
Essex) has other lines that go to Stratford and Liverpool Street, just like
the Central Line, but they do it in less time.

If I was living in that part of the country, I doubt that the Central would
be my standard commuting option, and even if my final destination was a
central station west of Liverpool Street, I'd probably only change onto it
there.

I'd probably need to live right next door to somewhere like Roding Valley
for it to be worth using - and maybe that's why it's the lightest-used
station, because only those in the immediate vicinity find it worthwhile.

As a route into London, it's not *that* useful. If the stations in the area
were better connected to a bigger variety of destinations (e.g.
Chelsea-Hackney line taking the southern part of the loop, and Victoria line
Whipps Cross-Woodford extenstion taking the northern part) then traffic
would likely increase.

Roding Valley is a special case - it's on a badly served branchline, so
of course demand will be low. But usage on the Epping and Hainult via
NP branches is fairly strong. Which alternative routes to Liverpool
Street did you have in mind? The Chingford line is a fair way west of
the Central.

What's more, on the Shenfield line, most commuters going west of
Liverpool Street change at Stratford to cross over the platform to the
tube because it's easier than trapsing all the way across the concourse
at the end of the line.

Jonn

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
Why does the north east corner suffer from a lack of customers yet the
NW,
SW and SE do fine for numbers? Any ideas? Could it mean the lack of
passenger numbers further closes in the North East corner?

Both central and district lines are still reasonably well used until at
least zone 4. And south east London is barely served at all. So I'm not
exactly clear on what you could mean.


I think the OP might be driving at the fact that North East London (and West
Essex) has other lines that go to Stratford and Liverpool Street, just like
the Central Line, but they do it in less time.

If I was living in that part of the country, I doubt that the Central would
be my standard commuting option, and even if my final destination was a
central station west of Liverpool Street, I'd probably only change onto it
there.

I'd probably need to live right next door to somewhere like Roding Valley
for it to be worth using - and maybe that's why it's the lightest-used
station, because only those in the immediate vicinity find it worthwhile.

As a route into London, it's not *that* useful. If the stations in the area
were better connected to a bigger variety of destinations (e.g.
Chelsea-Hackney line taking the southern part of the loop, and Victoria line
Whipps Cross-Woodford extenstion taking the northern part) then traffic
would likely increase.

Roding Valley is a special case - it's on a badly served branchline, so
of course demand will be low. But usage on the Epping and Hainult via
NP branches is fairly strong. Which alternative routes to Liverpool
Street did you have in mind? The Chingford line is a fair way west of
the Central.

What's more, on the Shenfield line, most commuters going west of
Liverpool Street change at Stratford to cross over the platform to the
tube because it's easier than trapsing all the way across the concourse
at the end of the line.

Jonn

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:39:15 -0000, "Sir Benjamin Nunn"
wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Why does the north east corner suffer from a lack of customers yet the
NW,
SW and SE do fine for numbers? Any ideas? Could it mean the lack of
passenger numbers further closes in the North East corner?

Both central and district lines are still reasonably well used until at
least zone 4. And south east London is barely served at all. So I'm not
exactly clear on what you could mean.


I think the OP might be driving at the fact that North East London (and West
Essex) has other lines that go to Stratford and Liverpool Street, just like
the Central Line, but they do it in less time.

Well yes they do it in less time if you have a semi fast option. I
understand a lot of people railhead at Epping from the surrounding area
(including Harlow) so the direct but slower and cheaper option must have
some attraction to Essex residents.

If I was living in that part of the country, I doubt that the Central would
be my standard commuting option, and even if my final destination was a
central station west of Liverpool Street, I'd probably only change onto it
there.

As already mentioned an awful lot of people change at Stratford onto the
Central and the volumes changing off "One" services at Walthamstow,
Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are not small either. The onward direct
link via the Victoria Line has its attractions relative to a
theoretically faster trip to Liverpool St and then a change to bus or
tube.

If I worked in the City close to Liverpool St then I would certainly use
the Overground from Walthamstow. However almost every other journey I
make involves a bus and then the tube network. The interchange at
Liverpool St between main line and LU is utterly awful at busy times and
not that great off peak.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!