Michael Hoffman wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does.

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.



There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

Also on stops served by more than one line? Here in Kristiansand, Norway
the custom is for buses to always stop on the part of the routes that are
not served by other lines, elsewhere you have to signal.

Yes, though because they tend to design their networks around
connnections this happens a lot less than it does in the UK.

Neil

MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.

Neil

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Neil Williams wrote:
MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.


It would allow people to change bus as well: you can't signal the
following bus from inside the previous one.

The trouble is that the only "performance indicator" for London's buses
at the moment is whether the bus arrives at the end of its route on
time, empty or not. This may happen to hugely increase individuals'
journey times and make buses less attractive, but it doesn't seem to
matter to TfL.

Similar on the Underground (nearly back to thread) where people who
stand back politely to let people get off have no chance of getting on
at stations like Bank on the Northern, and the train departs nearly
empty with a crowd on the platform, sometimes before everyone has had a
chance to get off.

MIG wrote:

(snip)

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?


Have drivers been officially instructed to do that? I'm certain that
it's hasn't become official TfL policy to treat all stops at request
stops.

I can quite believe that it has become the unofficial policy at some
bus companies though, as it happened to me this morning - i.e. a bus
slowed down at a compulsory stop, indicated, but then pulled out again.
In mitigation I should add that it was busy, with another two buses
behind, and I suspect I didn't convey much purpose and meaning as I was
half asleep! Normally I always stick my hand out whatever type of stop
I'm at, but this morning I didn't, perhaps as I had this discussion in
my head.

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the bus, and
just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers have
stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that on the
approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail and
forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of occasions!

MIG wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.


It would allow people to change bus as well: you can't signal the
following bus from inside the previous one.

The trouble is that the only "performance indicator" for London's buses
at the moment is whether the bus arrives at the end of its route on
time, empty or not. This may happen to hugely increase individuals'
journey times and make buses less attractive, but it doesn't seem to
matter to TfL.

As a counter-point to that it means that those on the bus are not left
dawdling around. It's purely subjective but my memory of bus journeys
of old was that they weren't as snappy as nowadays. Yes, this has a
number of downsides, but I quite like the sense of urgency that now
seems to pervade bus operations in London, because ultimately I want to
get from A to B.

If changes of bus are involved then it may well be that there are
several routes serving a particular corridor that a passenger could
use. Also, of course, there are often more buses on each route
nowadays, and I think a frequent service on bus routes where big gaps
between buses are avoided as much as possible really does inspire
confidence in the bus network. There's nothing worse than waiting at a
stop for ages. I'd suggest factoring in these considerations when
weighing up such matters.

Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

(snip)

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?


Have drivers been officially instructed to do that? I'm certain that
it's hasn't become official TfL policy to treat all stops at request
stops.



Well, I have it off the cuff from a bus driver, whose comment perfectly
matched my experience. I can't prove where the instructions come from,
but they certainly apply.

Mizter T wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the bus, and
just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers have
stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that on the
approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger the
driver would forget.


I make a point of ringing the bell every time now, no matter how
obvious it might seem that I need to be let off, having been stuck on
the bus more than once before (eg at Trafalgar Square at a compulsory
stop in the rush hour when I was standing by the door).

It's a kind of passenger protest some of the time. "I don't care how
annoying it is to you to have a chorus of rings at every stop. Perhaps
if you generally stopped at bus stops you'd have a quieter ride."


Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail and
forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of occasions!