I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically when I
heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had done during
South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to ask about their
plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the offer.

They came back with the most outdated and in places downright dishonest
stream of pathetic arguments against taking up the Mayor's offer you can
imagine. All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that); a claim that *no* NR operator could possibly take up the offer at
the moment for lots of reasons (ridiculous when c2c had made their
announcement a day or two earlier); and the outright lie that the £20m
was "only a loan" so would have to be "paid back with interest".

I passed the response to TfL for comment, replying in the meantime with
my considered opinions and queries about their laughable response. I
also replied again when Chiltern took up the offer a few days later,
pointing out again that they were wrong about other NR operators; and
finally when TfL replied (saying that they had contacted ATOC to
complain about the misinformation SER were giving their customers -
excellent!) I passed their response to SER too.

My three e-mails were sent on 18, 25 and 27 January, but still no
response was forthcoming today, and the deadline is looming, so tonight
I rang up their customer service line. After being kept on hold for five
to ten minutes, I got through to someone who could basically tell me
absolutely nothing beyond the fact that because my e-mails raised
complicated issues, they were all at "Head Office, in a queue, to be
dealt with in order of receipt". Apparently "they have a lot of stuff"
at Head Office, so they can't tell me when it's likely to be responded
to. I suspect it will be some time after the 31 Jan deadline.

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Apologies if you've read this whole post hoping it was going to get to a
really interesting point of some sort. I wanted to get this all off my
chest in the vain hope that somehow writing all this down would lead to
me, or someone reading it, having an amazing idea that would guarantee
that SER would accept Oyster PAYG within weeks. I fear I was being a
little optimistic.

*sigh*

Sorry again,

Paul

On 29 Jan, 19:42, Paul Speller wrote:
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)



Interestingly, their magazine/leaflet thing, published recently,
mentions the zonal fares adoption as 'aiding the future introduction
of Oyster'.

In ,
Paul Speller typed:

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically
when I heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had
done during South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to
ask about their plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the
offer.

Southeastern have a little more to organise than c2c do before they can
start Oyster PAYG. They are implementing the zonal fares in the same
timeframe that other companies are. I would be surprised if they lag
behind other similar companies in implementing Oyster PAYG. It may be
that your communications have only been reaching people who do not have
the whole picture on the subject.



--
Bob

"Paul Speller" wrote in message
...
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster were
introduced at SER-served stations?

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:42:53 +0000, Paul Speller
wrote:

I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

Anyway, on hearing recently of the Mayor's offer of £20m to get Oyster
PAYG off the ground for National Rail operators, and specifically when I
heard that c2c were taking it up, I contacted SER (as I had done during
South Eastern's publicly owned period, to no avail) to ask about their
plans for Oyster PAYG, with specific reference to the offer.

They came back with the most outdated and in places downright dishonest
stream of pathetic arguments against taking up the Mayor's offer you can
imagine. All the golden oldies were the increased risk of fraud at
ungated stations (as if bits of the Tube and the DLR can't cope with
that); a claim that *no* NR operator could possibly take up the offer at
the moment for lots of reasons (ridiculous when c2c had made their
announcement a day or two earlier); and the outright lie that the £20m
was "only a loan" so would have to be "paid back with interest".

I passed the response to TfL for comment, replying in the meantime with
my considered opinions and queries about their laughable response. I
also replied again when Chiltern took up the offer a few days later,
pointing out again that they were wrong about other NR operators; and
finally when TfL replied (saying that they had contacted ATOC to
complain about the misinformation SER were giving their customers -
excellent!) I passed their response to SER too.

My three e-mails were sent on 18, 25 and 27 January, but still no
response was forthcoming today, and the deadline is looming, so tonight
I rang up their customer service line. After being kept on hold for five
to ten minutes, I got through to someone who could basically tell me
absolutely nothing beyond the fact that because my e-mails raised
complicated issues, they were all at "Head Office, in a queue, to be
dealt with in order of receipt". Apparently "they have a lot of stuff"
at Head Office, so they can't tell me when it's likely to be responded
to. I suspect it will be some time after the 31 Jan deadline.

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Apologies if you've read this whole post hoping it was going to get to a
really interesting point of some sort. I wanted to get this all off my
chest in the vain hope that somehow writing all this down would lead to
me, or someone reading it, having an amazing idea that would guarantee
that SER would accept Oyster PAYG within weeks. I fear I was being a
little optimistic.

I very much doubt SER could achieve Oyster acceptance within weeks even
if they were willing to do so. The three TOCs who have shown an apparent
willingness to leap on board are those who have shown either the most
enthusiasm for the concept from the early days or who have the smallest
"learning curve" due to other initiatives they have implemented. It is
also worth noting that the TOCs in question are all relatively self
contained.

C2C were always enthusiastic and so were Chiltern. Both were very happy
to implement gating at their stations while Silverlink were less so but
I think they "saw the light" eventually. The impending transfer to TfL
control makes their recent agreement for the Metro lines a no brainer. I
understand C2C and Chiltern have Cubic supplied ticket selling equipment
which will make Oyster integration easier. I don't know whether any
other TIS has been accredited by both TfL and ATOC RSP as being able to
first issue and update Oyster cards.

To be fair to the other TOCs this is a very important issue for them and
for their passengers. Despite the rhetoric that is flying around between
the two "sides" in this great debate it is essential that everyone
participates in Oyster on a basis that is well understood and which does
not contain unacceptable risks. If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved. The Mayor is presenting Oyster as something that
is incredibly easy to adopt and make happen - I think that is a gross
simplification.

While I'd dearly love to see all the TOCs accepting Oyster inside the
zones and beyond I think everyone is being done a disservice by the
current flurry of misinformation and gross oversimplification of what is
involved and what is at stake. I think all the London TOCs will join in
but we are at the stage of brinkmanship now and it will be interesting
to see who "blinks first" or whether the DfT broker a settlement. I
realise the above doesn't help your "rant" but I think getting cross is
not likely to make things happen any faster. You are owed a sensible and
clear explanation by SER though.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:04:35 -0000, Nautilus wrote:

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster were
introduced at SER-served stations?

Either the same or less. You'd have a choice between renewing the
season, or using PAYG each day if that works out cheaper.

"Paul Speller" wrote in message
...
I'm at the end of my tether with my local train operating company,
Southeastern Railway (SER hereafter).

They only took over the franchise 9 months ago but they signed up to it
just before the government decided that all future franchises would
mandate acceptance of Oyster PAYG, which basically means that if SER
won't adopt Oyster voluntarily, they won't be legally compelled to for
something like ten years! (As if we didn't suffer enough through the
Connex years...)

...

Is there anything I can do to get some action out of this lazy,
unhelpful, irritating company? My wife (she's the commuter, I'm the
leisure traveller) is going to SER's Meet the Managers session on
Thursday to have a rant but that's the day after the deadline has
passed. Why isn't there more publicity for how selfish/greedy/obstinate
the NR operators who aren't taking up this deal are being? How can we
get some? It's so frustrating. Is there anything I can do, either to
help get them to accept the offer, or to get them reprimanded for their
misinformation and unhelpfulness?

Don't believe all that one-sided Mayoral propaganda though. There's a lot
more to implementing PAYG for our TOC than a one-off £20m bribe to adopt the
system.

As a Southeastern commuter from Bexley, I have to say I couldn't care less
whether they implement Oyster PAYG or not. What I do care about, though,
are the outrageous hikes in point-to-point rail fares for Greater London
services in Southeastern's domain to make way for Oyster (60%+ increase in
the rail fare to Sidcup from Bexley, and in Bromley some fares have gone up
by over 70%!). But because these increases are in Bexley and Bromley,
nobody in TfL or central London really gives a damn of course.

Give me non-zonal fares and paper tickets any day! And while we're at it,
give me freedom from TfL and the Mayor of London's interference ;-)

Nick

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:04:35 -0000, Nautilus wrote:

Question: would someone who currently has an SER annual season ticket
issued
for travel between a station within Greater London and 'London Terminals'
only (i.e. no bus or tube travel at all) end up paying more or less for
their weekday only, peak hours only travel to and from London if Oyster
were
introduced at SER-served stations?

Either the same or less. You'd have a choice between renewing the
season, or using PAYG each day if that works out cheaper.

Thanks to the "zonal fares" project though, lots of the Southeastern rail
seasons have been ramped up enormously to match (60/70% increase in
point-to-point seasons in some cases). PAYG would have been a *lot* more
expensive if this hadn't happened. Now the prices will be much closer...

But of course child-rate fares are now much lower, so we can subsidise all
those teenage vandals who wreck the interiors of the trains. Welcome to the
crazy world of TfL.

Nick

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

To be fair to the other TOCs this is a very important issue for them and
for their passengers. Despite the rhetoric that is flying around between
the two "sides" in this great debate it is essential that everyone
participates in Oyster on a basis that is well understood and which does
not contain unacceptable risks. If people rush at this then it is likely
to go wrong with ticket selling staff and passengers being the poor
people who will deal with the consequences of ticket systems not
working, cards not working, ticket gates and validators doing the wrong
thing and passengers being mischarged. It is all too easy to do and
that's before you get to the issues about revenue assumptions in
franchise bids, running costs, installation, commission on sales,
provision of usage information, system security, training and education
and procurement issues for the equipment and whether compatibility can
actually be achieved. The Mayor is presenting Oyster as something that
is incredibly easy to adopt and make happen - I think that is a gross
simplification.

For the SE TOCs all the other nationally available ticket types still have
to be available for people making long distance journies too. It all looks
quite straightforward if you think only of a journey from Kent to a zonal
destination, where anti-fraud measures over the years have led to the
situation where an overnight return is usually no longer sold, and you have
to have two singles - a bit like LU really. But add all the longer duration
advance purchase stuff into the mix, and first class availability on some
but not all services, and railcards, the ticketing problem is an order of
magnitude more complex. I imagine a major question exercising the TOCs is
where to draw their Oyster boundary - notwithstanding that SWT are to
introduce it throughout - but will it be zonal, payg, all ticket types? Who
can tell...

Paul S

"Nick" wrote in message
. uk...


Thanks to the "zonal fares" project though, lots of the Southeastern rail
seasons have been ramped up enormously to match (60/70% increase in
point-to-point seasons in some cases). PAYG would have been a *lot* more
expensive if this hadn't happened. Now the prices will be much closer...


Are you sure about season tickets being 'ramped up' due to the introduction
of zonal fares? All the info published so far by NR states the exact
opposite, ie that zonal fare changes only apply to SDS SDR and CDR ticket
types.

Paul