From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/
6316245.stm

----------
Train firms to adopt Oyster cards

Train operators have agreed to introduce Oyster cards in London after
accepting a £20m grant from the mayor.

Ten firms operating surface rail services into London will share the
subsidy to install pay-as-you-go Oyster reading equipment.

The electronic cards are used across the city on the Tube, buses,
trams and Docklands Light Railway network.

New equipment will have to be fitted in about 260 London stations
which do not have fully automatic gates.

Proper funding

George Muir, of the Association of Train Operating Companies, said
details of the proposal will need to be ironed out.

"All London train operators will be responding positively to Transport
for London's proposal for Oyster pay-as-you-go," he said.

Mr Muir said because further discussion is needed to reach agreement
on the proper level of funding for different parts of the network.

Train operators are also calling for progress in dual-reading gates at
London's stations so they accept ITSO electronic cards.

The ITSO card, similar to the Oyster card, will be the standard smart
card for railway passengers outside London.
----------


Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off. As Paul
C previously predicted they left it to the last moment - today (Jan
31st) is the deadline the Mayor gave them to accept his offer of £20
million funding to install Oyster kit at stations. All ten London TOCs
have accepted - a number which either counts Heathrow Connect (a FGW/
BAA joint venture) as a separate TOC, or otherwise includes Virgin
Cross-Country (who run a few trains a day that stop at Kensington
Olympia and Easr Croydon).

Now the fun starts - actually implementing the Oyster Pay-as-you-go
system on the National Rail (NR) network in London - there's some
tricky decisions to be made regarding what route the system will
assume a passenger takes between A and B and thus what fare will
apply, and also what fare scale will apply to NR journeys, as well as
many other issues. No information as to when the whole system will be
up and running, though I'd think this all needs a good amount of time
to get sorted out.

Mizter T wrote:

From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6316245.stm

----------
Train firms to adopt Oyster cards

Train operators have agreed to introduce Oyster cards in London after
accepting a £20m grant from the mayor.
(snip)
----------

Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off.[...]
(snip)


It seems like the train companies haven't said an unequivocal yes to
Oyster Pay-as-you-go yet! The BBC story linked to above has
subsequently been updated to include this comment from Mayor Ken:

-----
Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said: "This is a step in the right
direction, however there is some way to go before an agreement is
reached.

"Transport for London will work with the companies over the next two
months to try to resolve outstanding issues."
-----

The comments above are taken from a statement released today by the
Mayor, the full text of which can be read on the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...ress-releases-
content.asp?prID=1051
or via http://tinyurl.com/2ybc3j

ATOC has also released an interesting statement which outlines their
position on implementing Oyster Pay-as-you-go, including their
concerns - it can be read he
http://www.atoc-comms.org/atocstory.asp?
abstractorder=&toc=&category=&File_reference=83025 6
or via http://tinyurl.com/yvmrfg


The TfL statement confirms recent comments made here on utl that
Southern and Southeastern TOCs (both run by Govia) in particular have
concerns. The ATOC statement fleshes out some of those concerns -
alongside concerns about the extra processing needed to run the Oyster
PAYG system they also have concerns that Oyster PAYG might help to
assist fare evasion (I can see potential issues about short ticket
fraud for example). ATOC also suggest that smartcard ticketing ideally
needs ticket gates at all stations and points out that in contrast to
LU's network which is comprehensively gated, only 70 National Rail
stations in the capital have gates whilst the other 260 don't.

Nonetheless ATOC's statement does state that "These issues can be
overcome [...]".

It seems that in response to the Mayor's offer, on the deadline day
the TOCs have managed to say "yes, but..." - nonetheless this is
progress. Interesting times lie ahead.

On 31 Jan 2007 08:16:48 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6316245.stm

----------
Train firms to adopt Oyster cards

Train operators have agreed to introduce Oyster cards in London after
accepting a £20m grant from the mayor.
(snip)
----------

Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off.[...]
(snip)


It seems like the train companies haven't said an unequivocal yes to
Oyster Pay-as-you-go yet! The BBC story linked to above has
subsequently been updated to include this comment from Mayor Ken:

-----
Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said: "This is a step in the right
direction, however there is some way to go before an agreement is
reached.

"Transport for London will work with the companies over the next two
months to try to resolve outstanding issues."
-----

The TfL statement confirms recent comments made here on utl that
Southern and Southeastern TOCs (both run by Govia) in particular have
concerns. The ATOC statement fleshes out some of those concerns -
alongside concerns about the extra processing needed to run the Oyster
PAYG system they also have concerns that Oyster PAYG might help to
assist fare evasion (I can see potential issues about short ticket
fraud for example). ATOC also suggest that smartcard ticketing ideally
needs ticket gates at all stations and points out that in contrast to
LU's network which is comprehensively gated, only 70 National Rail
stations in the capital have gates whilst the other 260 don't.

Nonetheless ATOC's statement does state that "These issues can be
overcome [...]".

It seems that in response to the Mayor's offer, on the deadline day
the TOCs have managed to say "yes, but..." - nonetheless this is
progress. Interesting times lie ahead.

I am not the least bit surprised by this. What is interesting is that
both sides have "compromised" at this stage to present a seemingly
positive stance. The reality is that this just buys more time for each
side to pressure the other. The danger with this is that the precedent
of extending deadlines has now been established and I'd expect another
last minute "who blinks first" stance to emerge. I think the TOCs think
they can get more than £20m out of the Mayor for this scheme. Apart from
political, DfT and customer sanction I'm not sure what the Mayor can do
in return.

I note the comments about fraud - given that the Oyster card is more
secure than a magnetic ticket I find that an interesting stance for the
TOCs to take. I do hope they don't imagine they're going to get gates at
the remaining 260 stations. If they were really so concerned perhaps
they would be gating all of those stations anyway or at least restoring
ticket inspections on a regular basis? - I realise one or two TOCs are
being a bit more proactive on these issues (typically those with new
franchise deals!).

The pointed remark about ITSO compatible dual card readers is also
interesting. How many TOCs have signed up to ITSO compatible card
retailing and ticket gates outside of the London area?

Pardon my cynicism but I wonder what we'll be discussing on 31 March
2007?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jan 2007 08:16:48 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6316245.stm

----------
Train firms to adopt Oyster cards

Train operators have agreed to introduce Oyster cards in London after
accepting a £20m grant from the mayor.
(snip)
----------

Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off.[...]
(snip)

It seems like the train companies haven't said an unequivocal yes to
Oyster Pay-as-you-go yet! The BBC story linked to above has
subsequently been updated to include this comment from Mayor Ken:

-----
Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said: "This is a step in the right
direction, however there is some way to go before an agreement is
reached.

"Transport for London will work with the companies over the next two
months to try to resolve outstanding issues."
-----

The TfL statement confirms recent comments made here on utl that
Southern and Southeastern TOCs (both run by Govia) in particular have
concerns. The ATOC statement fleshes out some of those concerns -
alongside concerns about the extra processing needed to run the Oyster
PAYG system they also have concerns that Oyster PAYG might help to
assist fare evasion (I can see potential issues about short ticket
fraud for example). ATOC also suggest that smartcard ticketing ideally
needs ticket gates at all stations and points out that in contrast to
LU's network which is comprehensively gated, only 70 National Rail
stations in the capital have gates whilst the other 260 don't.

Nonetheless ATOC's statement does state that "These issues can be
overcome [...]".

It seems that in response to the Mayor's offer, on the deadline day
the TOCs have managed to say "yes, but..." - nonetheless this is
progress. Interesting times lie ahead.

I am not the least bit surprised by this. What is interesting is that
both sides have "compromised" at this stage to present a seemingly
positive stance. The reality is that this just buys more time for each
side to pressure the other. The danger with this is that the precedent
of extending deadlines has now been established and I'd expect another
last minute "who blinks first" stance to emerge. I think the TOCs think
they can get more than £20m out of the Mayor for this scheme. Apart from
political, DfT and customer sanction I'm not sure what the Mayor can do
in return.

I note the comments about fraud - given that the Oyster card is more
secure than a magnetic ticket I find that an interesting stance for the
TOCs to take. I do hope they don't imagine they're going to get gates at
the remaining 260 stations. If they were really so concerned perhaps
they would be gating all of those stations anyway or at least restoring
ticket inspections on a regular basis? - I realise one or two TOCs are
being a bit more proactive on these issues (typically those with new
franchise deals!).

The pointed remark about ITSO compatible dual card readers is also
interesting. How many TOCs have signed up to ITSO compatible card
retailing and ticket gates outside of the London area?

Pardon my cynicism but I wonder what we'll be discussing on 31 March
2007?

There is some more information from One on their own approach to PAYG
rollout:
http://www.onerailway.com/templates/...e.aspx?id=2584

Basically from Spring 2008, PAYG will be available at all the
intermediate stations along the current PAYG routes from Liverpool
St/Stratford to Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central, plus
the whole Chingford branch. The following year (Spring 2009),
availability will be extended to all other One stations within the zonal
area (although the announcement is slightly ambiguous about whether
Romford-Upminster will be included - I'm guessing it will).

First Great Western say 2009 within London:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/NewsItem.aspx?id=431

Silverlink have already said they hope to accept Oyster by the autumn on
the Metro routes (before the London Rail concession begins):
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...e.aspx?id=1209



--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/

Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off. As Paul
C previously predicted they left it to the last moment - today (Jan
31st) is the deadline the Mayor gave them to accept his offer of £20

20 million quid for 260 stations works out at 75K per
station.

That doesn't look like full funding to me (perhaps
I am over estimating the costs).

tim

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:13:45 +0000, Dave A wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jan 2007 08:16:48 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

From BBC news online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6316245.stm

----------
Train firms to adopt Oyster cards

Train operators have agreed to introduce Oyster cards in London after
accepting a £20m grant from the mayor.
(snip)
----------

Wow - looks like the Mayor's risky brinkmanship has paid off.[...]
(snip)

It seems like the train companies haven't said an unequivocal yes to
Oyster Pay-as-you-go yet! The BBC story linked to above has
subsequently been updated to include this comment from Mayor Ken:

-----
Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said: "This is a step in the right
direction, however there is some way to go before an agreement is
reached.

"Transport for London will work with the companies over the next two
months to try to resolve outstanding issues."
-----

The TfL statement confirms recent comments made here on utl that
Southern and Southeastern TOCs (both run by Govia) in particular have
concerns. The ATOC statement fleshes out some of those concerns -
alongside concerns about the extra processing needed to run the Oyster
PAYG system they also have concerns that Oyster PAYG might help to
assist fare evasion (I can see potential issues about short ticket
fraud for example). ATOC also suggest that smartcard ticketing ideally
needs ticket gates at all stations and points out that in contrast to
LU's network which is comprehensively gated, only 70 National Rail
stations in the capital have gates whilst the other 260 don't.

Nonetheless ATOC's statement does state that "These issues can be
overcome [...]".

It seems that in response to the Mayor's offer, on the deadline day
the TOCs have managed to say "yes, but..." - nonetheless this is
progress. Interesting times lie ahead.

I am not the least bit surprised by this. What is interesting is that
both sides have "compromised" at this stage to present a seemingly
positive stance. The reality is that this just buys more time for each
side to pressure the other. The danger with this is that the precedent
of extending deadlines has now been established and I'd expect another
last minute "who blinks first" stance to emerge. I think the TOCs think
they can get more than £20m out of the Mayor for this scheme. Apart from
political, DfT and customer sanction I'm not sure what the Mayor can do
in return.

I note the comments about fraud - given that the Oyster card is more
secure than a magnetic ticket I find that an interesting stance for the
TOCs to take. I do hope they don't imagine they're going to get gates at
the remaining 260 stations. If they were really so concerned perhaps
they would be gating all of those stations anyway or at least restoring
ticket inspections on a regular basis? - I realise one or two TOCs are
being a bit more proactive on these issues (typically those with new
franchise deals!).

The pointed remark about ITSO compatible dual card readers is also
interesting. How many TOCs have signed up to ITSO compatible card
retailing and ticket gates outside of the London area?

Pardon my cynicism but I wonder what we'll be discussing on 31 March
2007?

There is some more information from One on their own approach to PAYG
rollout:
http://www.onerailway.com/templates/...e.aspx?id=2584

Basically from Spring 2008, PAYG will be available at all the
intermediate stations along the current PAYG routes from Liverpool
St/Stratford to Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central, plus
the whole Chingford branch. The following year (Spring 2009),
availability will be extended to all other One stations within the zonal
area (although the announcement is slightly ambiguous about whether
Romford-Upminster will be included - I'm guessing it will).

To be fair to One they have at least had the gumption to join in where
it is most sensible and as early as possible. I certainly see and hear
plenty of people beeping their cards when they alight from a train from
Liv St at Walthamstow Central. PAYG must therefore be attractive to a
proportion of passengers on that line as it is an extremely convenient
way to reach the City. I'm naturally pleased the Chingford line will be
done soon and I think it will help further grow the traffic on the line
if convenient fares are offered off peak. Now all we need are some
extra stations and we'd have a very useful line indeed.

I'm surprised the other lines will take a bit longer as there is
obviously a data backbone and central system of sorts already in place
to deal with the validation data and this should be easy to extend.
Ticket selling is rather more involved as One has struggled to provide
compatible retailing equipment at Walthamstow and we currently have TfL
machines installed alongside One passenger operated machines. I have no
idea how easy it will be to update POMs to add Travelcards and PAYG to
Oyster cards - this is pretty much essential given that ticket office
hours are pretty damn poor.

I'd say it was essential that Romford - Upminster was included although
I'm not sure "Emerson Park proof" ticketing equipment actually exists.
I believe it is one place where there is no ticketing equipment of any
sort due to the rampant vandalism there. You then end up with the
question of how does a guard / conductor retail Oyster.

First Great Western say 2009 within London:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/NewsItem.aspx?id=431

That's encouraging but I still see some hints of the Southern / SET
reticence in their press release. It will be interesting to see if HEX
/ HConnect join in or not.

Silverlink have already said they hope to accept Oyster by the autumn on
the Metro routes (before the London Rail concession begins):
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...e.aspx?id=1209

This is simply bowing to the inevitable and I wouldn't be surprised if
special arrangements are in place here that means it costs Silverlink
nothing to implement or run. It's hugely to TfL's benefit that this
happens ASAP and if I was Silverlink I'd have made that point in
negotiations.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 04:47:56PM +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

I do hope they don't imagine they're going to get gates at
the remaining 260 stations.

As a regular user of one of those stations, so do I. There's enough of
a crush getting out of Thornton Heath station in the evenings already
without slowing everyone down even more with a ticket gate. Thankfully,
nigh-on everyone uses a season ticket so won't have to crowd around the
single working reader (come on, you all *know* that will happen. We're
talking Southern here!) to "touch out".

And that, incidentally, is an excellent reason for keeping proper season
tickets and not just having annual caps like someone else suggested.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

In this episode, R2 and Luke weld the doors shut on their X-Wing,
and Chewbacca discovers that his Ewok girlfriend is really just a
Womble with its nose chopped off.

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Silverlink have already said they hope to accept Oyster by the autumn on
the Metro routes (before the London Rail concession begins):
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...e.aspx?id=1209

This is simply bowing to the inevitable and I wouldn't be surprised if
special arrangements are in place here that means it costs Silverlink
nothing to implement or run. It's hugely to TfL's benefit that this
happens ASAP and if I was Silverlink I'd have made that point in
negotiations.

I think Silverlink management were being so agreeable because they
wanted to get the North London Line (or whatever it's called) TfL
franchise, so they were (perhaps still are) being very friendly towards
TfL ideas. It didn't work in the end, as I seem to recall they aren't on
the final shortlist.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

In message .com,
whos2091 writes
I think Silverlink management were being so agreeable because they
wanted to get the North London Line (or whatever it's called) TfL
franchise, so they were (perhaps still are) being very friendly towards
TfL ideas. It didn't work in the end, as I seem to recall they aren't on
the final shortlist.

They aren't? Who is on it? Is there a website you can point us to with
the companies shortlisted?
Just MTR Laing and Go-Via.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...-releases-cont
ent.asp?prID=984

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking