On Feb 19, 5:14 pm, David of Broadway
wrote:
MIG wrote:
A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?


Absolutely nothing.

I utterly deny the appropriateness of penalty fares in any
circumstances, but that's another thread ...

David of Broadway wrote:
MIG wrote:

A penalty fare is not a fine, and it should not be issued in a case
where fare evasion is suspected. It seems that the staff concerned
acted correctly and did not issue one in this case, because there was
suspicion of fare evasion.

It would have been wrong to issue penalty fare if fare evasion was
suspected, because it would make systematic evasion worthwhile (free
travel and the occasional £20 when caught).

Pardon my ignorance, but when is a penalty fare appropriate if not for
suspected fare evasion?

Only time I ever paid one was when I forgot my pass had expired - I
started from the DLR so no gate - of course I could not get out. I went
to the desk as soon as I realised my card was out-of-date. Given I tried
the card and only then did I know it had expired then it was hardly
evasion. I even forgot to argue that as I had only travelled on the DLR
I should have had a £5 penalty not a £10 one (it was some time ago).

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:39:02 +0000, Michelle
wrote:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.

If you were given details as to the procedure or who is handling the
case then I would call them. Failing that contact the customer services
centre - details on the LU bit of the TfL website. I don't know how
prosecutions use the Oyster card journey data in support of a case but
needless to say the information will be available in the system.

No one here can give you a detailed explanation about your particular
case as we not party to the details. Ring customer services to get an
update - this may not be immediate as they will need to track down the
particular case but this is your best way of obtaining more info.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 19 Feb, 18:35, Paul Corfield wrote:
I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

I can see it could possibly be an accident (your s.o. has freedom
pass, and you picked up the wrong wallet by mistake, and you didn't
look at the card (I assume it has a photo on)) -- this is especially
reasonable if you otherwise have a travelcard anyway! You should
hopefully get off with an informal warning if this was the case.

Certainly my fiancee and myself have unintentionally swapped oysters a
couple of times, and while they are unregistered, they could easilly
be registered and one have a travelcard while the other doesnt.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

And its great news that TFL crack down on this kind of thing. It's
like the blue-badge abuse, it's a system designed to help the less
fortunate -- abusing it is worse than normal fare evasion in my book.
Aside from the fine/prison, I think offenders should be banned from
public transport for a few years.

One also wonders about the source of the freedom pass. Was it stolen
and the old dear just hadn't realised, or are they willing
collaberators in a crime? Would this person be investigated?

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:39:02 +0000, Michelle
wrote:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground.

Which was a rather stupid thing to do if you don't mind me saying.

My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.

Yes - because the use of someone's freedom pass is not something that is
accidental or unintentioned. Penalty fares do not apply in these cases.
Misuse of a freedom pass is a serious issue in terms of fare evasion.

How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.

If you were given details as to the procedure or who is handling the
case then I would call them. Failing that contact the customer services
centre - details on the LU bit of the TfL website. I don't know how
prosecutions use the Oyster card journey data in support of a case but
needless to say the information will be available in the system.

No one here can give you a detailed explanation about your particular
case as we not party to the details. Ring customer services to get an
update - this may not be immediate as they will need to track down the
particular case but this is your best way of obtaining more info.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/


Perhaps someone who's familiar with the law can clarify what the
penalties are - if found guilty by a court then a person would
obviously end up with a criminal record and most likely a fine in
addition to paying some courts costs, but I'd have thought it would
take a pretty serious offence to end up with a custodial sentence for
fare evasion (for example ticket forgery).

On 19 Feb 2007 11:58:47 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

Perhaps someone who's familiar with the law can clarify what the
penalties are - if found guilty by a court then a person would
obviously end up with a criminal record and most likely a fine in
addition to paying some courts costs, but I'd have thought it would
take a pretty serious offence to end up with a custodial sentence for
fare evasion (for example ticket forgery).

It is entirely dependent upon the legislation that forms the basis of
prosecution. There are various choices from what I can recall but I do
know that the approach to prosecution changed a few years ago. As said
in another post there is also the possibility (and again we don't know
the facts) that other offences *may* have been committed.

As a LU employee I think I need to shut up now as it really is not
appropriate for me to comment further on what may become a prosecution.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Michelle wrote in
:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.
How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.


With all due respect, Michelle, this is the wrong place to ask. A lot of
people work for TFL and will have absolutely no interest in helping you at
all.

To be honest, I'm not brimming over with sympathy either, so all I am going
to say is that you are going to find a better reaction on somewhere like
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/

Although be warned, Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met, Brian
Paddick, is a regular :-))

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:36:37 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Michelle wrote in
:


I was caught using someone elses freedom pass instead of my own oyster
on London Underground. My details were taken but I wasn't given an on
the spot fine. I was told that I could be cautioned or prosecuted.
How long does it take before I hear from them? In what cases are
people more likely to be prosecuted as opposed to being cautioned? Do
they look for CCTV evidence and use the history of travel on the
freedom pass as evidence against you? I've also read that you could go
to prison and have a criminal record, how likely is this? What happens
if you're taken to court? I don't know what to do, I'm absolutely
terrfied of what could happen to me. Any answers or advice would be
appreciated. Thanks.


With all due respect, Michelle, this is the wrong place to ask. A lot of
people work for TFL and will have absolutely no interest in helping you at
all.

And what sort of answer is that? Only people who are familiar with the
detail of the case can actually provide useful help. I have pointed the
poster towards getting that help.

For people to wildly speculate about all sorts of outcomes will do the
poster no good whatsoever.

To be honest, I'm not brimming over with sympathy either, so all I am going
to say is that you are going to find a better reaction on somewhere like
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/

Really? that's full of revenue control officials and prosecution
department members is it?

Although be warned, Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met, Brian
Paddick, is a regular :-))

I can't imagine he'd care one way or the other. Transport revenue
prosecutions are not the concern of the Met Police.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

And what sort of answer is that? Only people who are familiar with
the detail of the case can actually provide useful help. I have
pointed the poster towards getting that help.


Sorry - that's what I meant. I was kind of paraphrasing what you wrote.
She's asking for advice in the wrong place, as either people here work for
TfL so it would be inappropriate for them to comment on a case that may go
to prosecution; OR they are going to be more concerned about her semantics
and her use of the word "fine" instead of "penalty fare" - you know who you
are ;-)

All she needs to know, whether you agree or not - and I'm not saying that I
do - is:

Assuming she's done this before (and I'm guessing she has)...
(a) should she come clean about it, beg forgiveness etc and if so would she
just be given a caution for her honesty; or
(b) should be say it was a one-off, and hope that they won't check CCTV
cameras against freedom card usage and end up prosecuting her for sure.

IE what's the likelihood that they do (b) and is it a risk worth taking.

I'm sure you'll agree that the chances of there being ANYONE here who is
likely to answer that question with any degree of impartiality is zilch.

And even those here who feel sympathy for her are not going to want to
contribute on UTL for fear of being flamed to **** by some of the more
aggressive types here (again, you know who you are!)

So I just politely hinted that she'd be better off getting a response from
a group that is less connected with either transport staff or transport
enthusiasts.

Whichever option she chooses, I think she learnt her lesson and by her own
admission is scared ****less.