On Feb 28, 12:56 am, Graeme Wall wrote:
In message .com
"Adrian" wrote:

[snip]



Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even need to
be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc from
Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in part, the
track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

What would be the logic of a freight connection between Southampton and
Felixstowe? I would have thought that there would be little or no traffic
actually between those points. Both are major container ports with traffic
to and from the major manufacturing centres of Britain. Those connections
could certainly do with upgrading. The two ports are too close together by
sea for there to be any advantage in unloading containers at one port,
railing them across country and reembarking them at the other.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

There would be zero containers, one would guess, running between the
two ports. However, this arc would cross every main line running west
and north from London and therefore allow container, and other
freight, trains to access the network without entering the
conurbation.

Adrian.

"sweek" wrote in message
ups.com...
Does anyone have a line diagram, or maybe even one showing where it
used to be quad-tracked?

If you fancy staring at a screen working it out, you can see most of it on
Google Maps, including the old spur where two of the tracks left between
Canonbury (or, at the time the now dead Mildmay Park) and Dalston Junction
and headed on down to broad street.

dave

In message .com
"Adrian" wrote:

On Feb 28, 12:56 am, Graeme Wall wrote:
In message .com
"Adrian" wrote:

[snip]



Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even need
to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc from
Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in part,
the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

What would be the logic of a freight connection between Southampton and
Felixstowe? I would have thought that there would be little or no
traffic actually between those points. Both are major container ports
with traffic to and from the major manufacturing centres of Britain.
Those connections could certainly do with upgrading. The two ports are
too close together by sea for there to be any advantage in unloading
containers at one port, railing them across country and reembarking them
at the other.

-- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

There would be zero containers, one would guess, running between the two
ports. However, this arc would cross every main line running west and
north from London and therefore allow container, and other freight, trains
to access the network without entering the conurbation.


I thought you were implying the ports needed connecting. Certainly there is
a pressing need to improve the rail access to both ports. There is a certain
arguement that such improvements should take preference over improvements to
passenger services, at least outside the major conurbations.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

On Feb 27, 11:58 pm, "BH Williams" wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Feb 27, 2:47 pm, "TheOneKEA" wrote:
On Feb 27, 10:02 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

I'm pretty convinced that once orbital rail improvements start to
materialise that there will be a surge in demand that is currently
suppressed by relatively poor service levels and / or concerns about
station facilities and security. I've slightly lost track as to what
improvements are due when - as TfL and Network Rail have different
views
as to what is needed - but I think TfL will be exercising its option
for
new trains and asking for signal and platform enhancements within 18-24
months of Overground starting this November.

Hopefully Willesden Junction High Level is done first - nearly all of
the existing stations EXCEPT THIS ONE can handle six-car trains (or
maybe they can handle 2x313, which may be shorter than 2x375).

As for line enhancements, restoring full four-tracking in all places
where it used to exist and constructing new stations at radial route
interchanges (i.e. for the Piccadilly, Northern and Central lines)
should definitely be considered.

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...se_thread/thre...

Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even
need to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc
from Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in
part, the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

This is not something I actually expect to happen! But such a route
could keep a substantial portion of the NL Line's freight load away
from London.

The North London Line needs to function much like TfL's mass transit
lines.

Adrian

The 'freight arc' doesn't need to reach directly from Southampton to
Felixstowe, but simply to allow access from either port to WCML and ECML.
WCML from S'oton is already available via Reading West Curve, though a
flyover here would be useful to avoid conflicts. I don't believe there is
more than one train per day from S'oton to the ECML, and this traffic could
easily pass via Birmingham/Derby.

There are bottlenecks at Winchester, Basingstoke and Reading. Between
Southampton and Basingstoke the railway is primarily a commuter
route. Utilizing the DN&S bypasses all these choke points and gives
freight trains their own path.

Felixstowe to the WCML/North could be served by gauge enhancements to the
routes from the Haven Ports to Peterborough via Ely, and thence via
Leicester/Nuneaton. There is other, non-container, traffic from West London
to East London/East Anglia, but this could travel via the Tottenham and
Hampstead, I believe.

Agreed, and my arc does nothing for Channel tunnel freight coming from
the CTRL. But I think for relieving the London commuter network it is
worthwhile idea.

Adrian

In article , (J.
Chisholm) wrote:

BH Williams wrote:

The 'freight arc' doesn't need to reach directly from Southampton
to Felixstowe, but simply to allow access from either port to
WCML and ECML.
WCML from S'oton is already available via Reading West Curve,
though a flyover here would be useful to avoid conflicts. I don't
believe there is more than one train per day from S'oton to the
ECML, and this traffic could easily pass via Birmingham/Derby.
Felixstowe to the WCML/North could be served by gauge
enhancements to the routes from the Haven Ports to Peterborough
via Ely, and thence via Leicester/Nuneaton. There is other,
non-container,traffic from West London to East London/East
Anglia, but this could travel via the Tottenham and Hampstead, I
believe.

I believe as part of S106 agreements improvements to signaling,
gauge enhancements, loop lengths are already COMMITED from Haven
Ports to P'bro
From P'bro to Nuneaton is supposed to being investigated, I
believe.

Perhaps Ken can help with a pot of money as it is almost certainly
the cheapest way of creating extra space on North London Line(s)

The route across the Fens would need electrification and then there is
the single track section from Soham to Ely to be sorted out.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mizter T wrote:
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

Er, yeah. It's a London commuter train, I don't know many un-bovinified.

TfL have ambitious plans for the NLL once they take over in November,
but as yet I don't think there's been any talk of lengthened trains,
just some plans for more frequent trains though I don't think there's
anything concrete yet.

Frequency, frequency, frequency, it's all about frequency. Frequency
improves availability as well as increasing capacity, and of course is
far more convenient. If you want to discourage people from driving you
have to remove the perceived extra cost of trains in terms of loss of
convenience. People aren't going to put up with 4tph. It has to be tube
frequencies.

Running longer trains on the NLL would require a number of stations to
have their platforms extended, which is easy in places but much harder
in others (such as at Kentish Town West). I have read somewhere
(either here on uk.railway) that Network Rail's Route Utilisation
Strategy doesn't anticipate the NLL needing longer trains for the next
few years - which is a bit of a surprise when you've seen it in cattle
transportation mode!

How much would they be extended? I just muse that it doesn't seem to
effect the Clapham tube stations or any of the other horizontally
challenged platforms on the tube...

The NLL has seemingly turned from a forgotten backwater of London's
rail system to become a very popular orbital link, but it's now almost
too popular for it's own good.

I'm not sure if there's really any such thing as unpopular PT in London.
Ultimately the demand is always there. Saying it isn't because the
satisfaction of that demand does not exist seems disingenuous.

Dan

Adrian wrote:
Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even
need to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc
from Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in
part, the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

This is not something I actually expect to happen! But such a route
could keep a substantial portion of the NL Line's freight load away
from London.

Sorry - I'm not so clued up about this but I am interested. You're
saying that a significant amount of capacity on London's railways are
taken with freight? Freight which has no relation to London and is just
travelling through? So London's crowded passenger network (not to
mention my miserable journey each morning) is partly caused by trains
which shouldn't even be on the (London) network?

I can't get my head around why freight trains would run on the NLL.
There're some industrial areas to the east and the north west I guess,
but does that justify taking capacity from the movement of people around
the capital?

The North London Line needs to function much like TfL's mass transit
lines.

Agree!

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:55:02 +0000, Dan Gravell
wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even
need to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc
from Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in
part, the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

This is not something I actually expect to happen! But such a route
could keep a substantial portion of the NL Line's freight load away
from London.

Sorry - I'm not so clued up about this but I am interested. You're
saying that a significant amount of capacity on London's railways are
taken with freight? Freight which has no relation to London and is just
travelling through? So London's crowded passenger network (not to
mention my miserable journey each morning) is partly caused by trains
which shouldn't even be on the (London) network?

Freight from Tilbury Docks as well as the various industries (e.g Fords
and petrochemicals) along the northern banks of the Thames Estuary is
taken both via the Gospel Oak and North London Lines as well as the
Great Eastern line to Stratford and then onto the North London Line from
there. Short of taking it half way round the country via Essex and
Suffolk there is no other way (that I can think of but I'm not an
expert) to get that freight onto the East Coast, West Coast, Midland or
Great Western Lines. [Happy to be corrected by those who know far more
about freight traffics.]

AFIAK the freight traffics are well established and did not present too
much of an issue when the NLL and GOBLIN were not as busy. Trains could
be pathed with relative ease. We are now in a different situation with
both the development of orbital rail services as well as the potential
development of Crossrail which must have an impact on track capacity on
the Great Eastern lines east of Stratford. There is also a growth in
demand for freight services as well as the moderate levels of
competition between the freight companies seems to be helping to grow
the market.

The other issue is the planned development of the Thames Gateway. I have
seen nothing at all that shows how main line rail services will cope
with the huge increase in population that is planned for the area.
Crossrail won't really help, DLR to Dagenham is but a small contribution
but nothing seems to be planned for the C2C network. I understand that
is pretty much crammed to capacity now and it's only a 2 track line into
London. If we are not to have a 12 lane A13 highway into London
something has to be done with rail capacity IMO.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Feb 28, 11:12 am, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:55:02 +0000, Dan Gravell





wrote:
Adrian wrote:
Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even
need to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc
from Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in
part, the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

This is not something I actually expect to happen! But such a route
could keep a substantial portion of the NL Line's freight load away
from London.

Sorry - I'm not so clued up about this but I am interested. You're
saying that a significant amount of capacity on London's railways are
taken with freight? Freight which has no relation to London and is just
travelling through? So London's crowded passenger network (not to
mention my miserable journey each morning) is partly caused by trains
which shouldn't even be on the (London) network?

Freight from Tilbury Docks as well as the various industries (e.g Fords
and petrochemicals) along the northern banks of the Thames Estuary is
taken both via the Gospel Oak and North London Lines as well as the
Great Eastern line to Stratford and then onto the North London Line from
there. Short of taking it half way round the country via Essex and
Suffolk there is no other way (that I can think of but I'm not an
expert) to get that freight onto the East Coast, West Coast, Midland or
Great Western Lines. [Happy to be corrected by those who know far more
about freight traffics.]

Post Beeching there are very few links between the main lines leaving
London. Not only Tilbury traffic, but also Felixstowe, 'comes in' to
the North London Line in order to access the rest of the network.

When one considers electrification the choice of the NLL becomes more
emphatic. If a freight train is electrically hauled throughout and
needs to pass from East Anglia or Essex to the English Midlands, the
North, or Scotland it must utilize the NLL.


AFIAK the freight traffics are well established and did not present too
much of an issue when the NLL and GOBLIN were not as busy. Trains could
be pathed with relative ease. We are now in a different situation with
both the development of orbital rail services as well as the potential
development of Crossrail which must have an impact on track capacity on
the Great Eastern lines east of Stratford. There is also a growth in
demand for freight services as well as the moderate levels of
competition between the freight companies seems to be helping to grow
the market.

The other issue is the planned development of the Thames Gateway. I have
seen nothing at all that shows how main line rail services will cope
with the huge increase in population that is planned for the area.
Crossrail won't really help, DLR to Dagenham is but a small contribution
but nothing seems to be planned for the C2C network. I understand that
is pretty much crammed to capacity now and it's only a 2 track line into
London. If we are not to have a 12 lane A13 highway into London
something has to be done with rail capacity IMO.
--
Indeed, there is a pitiful amount of planning for mobility. A road
only solution is no solution. Take a look at Los Angeles a metropolis
literally grinding to a halt.
Adrian

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:55:02 +0000, Dan Gravell
wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Much of the freight traffic on the North London Line does not even
need to be in London. I am convinced that the UK needs a freight arc
from Felixstowe to Southampton. This could be constructed using, in
part, the track beds of the DN&S and LNWR Oxford to Cambridge routes.

This is not something I actually expect to happen! But such a route
could keep a substantial portion of the NL Line's freight load away
from London.

Sorry - I'm not so clued up about this but I am interested. You're
saying that a significant amount of capacity on London's railways are
taken with freight? Freight which has no relation to London and is just
travelling through?

It's currently the only route from Felixstowe which can permit the
passage of 9'6" high containers [1] on normal height wagons to the
West Coast Main Line.

When [2] they finally finish converting the Felixstowe - Nuneaton
route this will no longer be the case.

[1] The current world standard.

[2] If


--
Regards

Mike