I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:01:20 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

Yes.

"Edward Cowling London UK" wrote in message
...
I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??


The answer is to either extend all the platforms and buy longer trains, or
cancel all the freight trains, buy more trains, and run them more often.
Don't make any plans based on it happening soon.

Paul

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??


On 27 Feb, 19:01, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

--
Edward Cowling London UK


You didn't say where and when you were going but yes, in my experience
at peak times the North London Line between Stratford and Willesden
Junction can be very busy in both directions, though I think it's
slightly less rammed west of West Hampstead. I don''t have a lot of
experience of the NLL south from Willesden Junction to Richmond but I
don't think it's quite so packed.

TfL have ambitious plans for the NLL once they take over in November,
but as yet I don't think there's been any talk of lengthened trains,
just some plans for more frequent trains though I don't think there's
anything concrete yet.

The NLL isn't getting new trains until 2009 - there's 24 three car
trains on order for the NLL but I'm not sure how many old trains are
in the fleet now, nor am I sure how intensive a service the new fleet
(or the old one for that matter) could provide. Another major issue
with the NLL is that it's an important cross-London freight link which
has no real alternative, for some stretches at least.

Running longer trains on the NLL would require a number of stations to
have their platforms extended, which is easy in places but much harder
in others (such as at Kentish Town West). I have read somewhere
(either here on uk.railway) that Network Rail's Route Utilisation
Strategy doesn't anticipate the NLL needing longer trains for the next
few years - which is a bit of a surprise when you've seen it in cattle
transportation mode!

The NLL has seemingly turned from a forgotten backwater of London's
rail system to become a very popular orbital link, but it's now almost
too popular for it's own good.

There's a lot more about plans for the NLL on alwaystouchout:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/43

The 8 trains per hour that wil run from Highbury and Islington down to
Crystal Palace and West Croydon using the extended East London Line
might help a bit, but those are going to be 4-car trains as well...

The new trains should also be more tube-like, and in the end the
service should look something like this:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-1.png
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-2.png

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

TfL have ambitious plans for the NLL once they take over in November,
but as yet I don't think there's been any talk of lengthened trains,
just some plans for more frequent trains though I don't think there's
anything concrete yet.


Nice to hear TFL are going to do something with the congestion charge
money, other than filling the streets with buses. Pity they didn't start
the project in 2003, but better late than never :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On 27 Feb 2007 11:52:56 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

You didn't say where and when you were going but yes, in my experience
at peak times the North London Line between Stratford and Willesden
Junction can be very busy in both directions, though I think it's
slightly less rammed west of West Hampstead. I don''t have a lot of
experience of the NLL south from Willesden Junction to Richmond but I
don't think it's quite so packed.

It is indeed not quite so packed, in the sense that you can actually
get on the train.

The NLL isn't getting new trains until 2009 - there's 24 three car
trains on order for the NLL but I'm not sure how many old trains are
in the fleet now, nor am I sure how intensive a service the new fleet
(or the old one for that matter) could provide.

The current fleet consists of 23 3-car 313s and 3 3-car 508s. These
cover the NLL, WLL, Watford DC line, and St Albans Abbey branch.

The 24 new trains will cover NLL and WLL services (not sure about the
St Albans Abbey branch).

(The Euston-Watford service will most likely be binned, and there will
be a separate fleet of 20 4-car third-rail-only trains for the
extended ELL.)

On 27 Feb, 20:07, "sweek" wrote:
The 8 trains per hour that wil run from Highbury and Islington down to
Crystal Palace and West Croydon using the extended East London Line
might help a bit, but those are going to be 4-car trains as well...

You mean the ELLX trains will be four car - the replacement NLL trains
will still be three car.


The new trains should also be more tube-like, and in the end the
service should look something like this:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-1.png
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-2.png

You rightly point out that the new Electrostar trains will be of a
more suitable design, which will of course help, but they won't cure
the problem. More capacity is needed.

I should of course have consulted the alwaystouchout page I referred
to in my first post and taken a proper look at those maps before
posting, so thanks for providing the direct link. I'm not quite sure
how the 8tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford will get fitted
in with all the freight, but that is indeed the plan - though not
until 2010 at the earliest.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:01:20 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

Apparently it is awful M-F peaks.

I've not used it then but I have used it on Saturdays - standing room
only west from Gospel Oak and the same back from Willesden Junction. I
was genuinely surprised (but pleased) as to how busy it was.

Even on a Sunday when it's only every 30 mins it's pretty busy with
almost all seats taken - it was a pleasant day so a lot of people seemed
to be heading for Kew and Richmond. Thinking back there were LU
engineering works on the District and Picc that day so that might have
skewed the numbers.

I'm pretty convinced that once orbital rail improvements start to
materialise that there will be a surge in demand that is currently
suppressed by relatively poor service levels and / or concerns about
station facilities and security. I've slightly lost track as to what
improvements are due when - as TfL and Network Rail have different views
as to what is needed - but I think TfL will be exercising its option for
new trains and asking for signal and platform enhancements within 18-24
months of Overground starting this November.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

Drifting off from the original subject. I am always amused when I hear the
whining and complaining at East Croydon about supposedly crowded trains in
the morning peaks. Yes they can be extremely crowded but they are as
nothing compared to those I used to encounter in the peaks from Edmonton
Green. They'd have been regarded as half empty there :-)