On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:01:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

I doubt TfL is interested in making changes to allow the sale of more
child tickets, since they have a child Oyster photocard program they
want to get people onto.

And screw the tourists?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:01:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

I doubt TfL is interested in making changes to allow the sale of more
child tickets, since they have a child Oyster photocard program they
want to get people onto.

And screw the tourists?

That's probably just a happy coincidence.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:29:09 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:

....
Then again, IMO a greater priority (and one particularly relevant to
this thread) is adjusting the ticket machines to allow them to be used
with overseas credit cards that don't have chip-and-PIN.

The machines used to take 1 use per day of a credit card until the
chip-n-pin upgrade. Very handy for swift purchases. As you say,
non-CnP cards are out of luck. Same holds true for SNCF ticket
machines of course.

The Schiphol (NL) train machines don't like short PINs: saw a poor
Spaniard with a 3-number PIN suffering from the min-4 design, even
pressing the Enter button could not force it to accept his code. But
the main design defect of LT (and other) CnP machines that I've seen
is having the separate keypad which makes it less than obvious to a
lot of people that they need to turn right and play with a separate
different user interface.
--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

Colum Mylod wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:29:09 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:
...
Then again, IMO a greater priority (and one particularly relevant to
this thread) is adjusting the ticket machines to allow them to be used
with overseas credit cards that don't have chip-and-PIN.

The machines used to take 1 use per day of a credit card until the
chip-n-pin upgrade. Very handy for swift purchases. As you say,
non-CnP cards are out of luck. Same holds true for SNCF ticket
machines of course.

Which is extremely unfortunate, as one of the great benefits of credit
cards is that they can be used around the world without hassle.

I have no problems with local decisions to impose additional
restrictions - as long as those with credit cards from outside the
locality in question are not expected to abide by them.

I don't understand why the machines can't prompt for a PIN only if the
card is PIN-equipped.

Incidentally, none of this is documented on the TfL website or on the
machines themselves. With more ticket offices closing, the problem is
only going to get worse.

The Schiphol (NL) train machines don't like short PINs: saw a poor
Spaniard with a 3-number PIN suffering from the min-4 design, even
pressing the Enter button could not force it to accept his code. But
the main design defect of LT (and other) CnP machines that I've seen
is having the separate keypad which makes it less than obvious to a
lot of people that they need to turn right and play with a separate
different user interface.

Neither my credit card nor my ATM card worked at the Schiphol machines.
I had to buy my ticket from a ticket window and pay a €0.50 surcharge
(that I didn't even realize I was paying until I looked at my receipt).

This is not acceptable. I wonder why the banks haven't cracked down on
it yet.

NYCT's MetroCard Vending Machines prompt credit card users for their
billing ZIP codes. I don't think international cardholders are
prompted, but can anybody confirm? (James?)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:57:59 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:


NYCT's MetroCard Vending Machines prompt credit card users for their
billing ZIP codes. I don't think international cardholders are
prompted, but can anybody confirm? (James?)

I'm not sure what I would have made of it if it had, but it didn't.

On 5 Jun, 05:57, David of Broadway
wrote:

Which is extremely unfortunate, as one of the great benefits of credit
cards is that they can be used around the world without hassle.

I have no problems with local decisions to impose additional
restrictions - as long as those with credit cards from outside the
locality in question are not expected to abide by them.

I don't understand why the machines can't prompt for a PIN only if the
card is PIN-equipped.

As a chip-and-PIN "why is everyone so ignorant about the rules around
chip-and-PIN" geek, this is quite an embarrassing question, but:

* if a non-chip-and-PIN card is used without a signature or human
visual inspection in a machine, does that count as a normal non-chip-
and-PIN transaction, or do cardholder-not-present rules apply?

If CNP rules apply, then I can see why TfL would refuse to accept the
cards, as they'd be liable for chargebacks for any fraudulent usage.
If CNP rules do not apply, then the only reason to refuse to accept
the cards is ignorance or idiocy [see also: merchants who refuse to
accept chip-and-sig / foreign cards as they believe it's the same as
accepting a signature for a chip-and-PIN].

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:
On 5 Jun, 05:57, David of Broadway
wrote:
Which is extremely unfortunate, as one of the great benefits of credit
cards is that they can be used around the world without hassle.

I have no problems with local decisions to impose additional
restrictions - as long as those with credit cards from outside the
locality in question are not expected to abide by them.

I don't understand why the machines can't prompt for a PIN only if the
card is PIN-equipped.

As a chip-and-PIN "why is everyone so ignorant about the rules around
chip-and-PIN" geek, this is quite an embarrassing question, but:

* if a non-chip-and-PIN card is used without a signature or human
visual inspection in a machine, does that count as a normal non-chip-
and-PIN transaction, or do cardholder-not-present rules apply?

If CNP rules apply, then I can see why TfL would refuse to accept the
cards, as they'd be liable for chargebacks for any fraudulent usage.
If CNP rules do not apply, then the only reason to refuse to accept
the cards is ignorance or idiocy [see also: merchants who refuse to
accept chip-and-sig / foreign cards as they believe it's the same as
accepting a signature for a chip-and-PIN].

You sound like you know more about this subject than I do.

I don't know what the CNP rules are. But doesn't the merchant agreement
obligate the merchant to accept every card that displays the relevant
logo (MasterCard, Visa, etc.)? At some stations, cards without CNP are
not accepted. (And TfL doesn't even warn people in advance! Most
people affected are probably visitors, who cannot be expected to
understand the intricacies of CNP.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 5 Jun, 14:21, David of Broadway
wrote:
You sound like you know more about this subject than I do.

I don't know what the CNP rules are. But doesn't the merchant agreement
obligate the merchant to accept every card that displays the relevant
logo (MasterCard, Visa, etc.)? At some stations, cards without CNP are
not accepted. (And TfL doesn't even warn people in advance! Most
people affected are probably visitors, who cannot be expected to
understand the intricacies of CNP.)

Oh, bother - sorry for use of confusing abbreviations. CNP =
"cardholder not present" not "chip and pin".

Every merchant should accept every card, irrespective of whether it
has a chip or a PIN on it. If they refuse to accept your non-chip-and-
PIN card, explain politely to them that the risk is with you and your
bank, not with them. If they still refuse, then report the merchant to
Visa/Mastercard for breaking their T&Cs.

However, I'm not sure if the lack of merchant liability extends to
transactions which are not verified *at all* - which is the case for
non-chip-and-PIN cards being used in automatic machines. I suspect
they might be treated like cardholder-not-present (e.g. online
shopping) transactions, under which the merchant *is* fully liable for
any losses.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:
On 5 Jun, 14:21, David of Broadway
wrote:
You sound like you know more about this subject than I do.

I don't know what the CNP rules are. But doesn't the merchant agreement
obligate the merchant to accept every card that displays the relevant
logo (MasterCard, Visa, etc.)? At some stations, cards without CNP are
not accepted. (And TfL doesn't even warn people in advance! Most
people affected are probably visitors, who cannot be expected to
understand the intricacies of CNP.)

Oh, bother - sorry for use of confusing abbreviations. CNP =
"cardholder not present" not "chip and pin".

OH! As I said, you know more about this subject than I do.

Every merchant should accept every card, irrespective of whether it
has a chip or a PIN on it. If they refuse to accept your non-chip-and-
PIN card, explain politely to them that the risk is with you and your
bank, not with them. If they still refuse, then report the merchant to
Visa/Mastercard for breaking their T&Cs.

I suppose I could politely explain this to a vending machine. I don't
think I should expect much of a response, however.

However, I'm not sure if the lack of merchant liability extends to
transactions which are not verified *at all* - which is the case for
non-chip-and-PIN cards being used in automatic machines. I suspect
they might be treated like cardholder-not-present (e.g. online
shopping) transactions, under which the merchant *is* fully liable for
any losses.

If so, then that's the risk the merchant takes in accepting credit cards
in settings where signature-based verification is impossible (e.g., at a
vending machine). (Given the cost of staffing a ticket office, it seems
like a worthwhile risk to me.)

And it's not clear to me that it's the case at all. Although the
merchant is based in the UK, the credit card and its issuing bank are
based elsewhere, where different rules apply. Whose rules apply in such
a situation?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

David of Broadway wrote

I don't understand why the machines can't prompt for a PIN only if
the
card is PIN-equipped.

ITYM Chip-and-PIN-equiped.

Plastic cards had PINs issued long before Chip-and-PIN but they were
intended only for getting cash.

--
Mike D