"Joe Patrick" wrote in message
...
I was just thinking of 3 ways to reduce vandalism and was wondering of the
practicality.
1) Link the on Board CCTV cameras to a central control room with controls
such as on train PA use (like Scotrail's remote Announcments)
2) Have another person on the train who can watch the cameras, provide
information and check tickets.
3) Probably not a very good idea, but do as they do in New York and
sometimes in Bristol. Use the older vehicles at night and save the better
ones for the day.

This all costs money (or more money) of which there is no incentive for many
TOCs to provide. Connex and other London commuter TOCs will not get any
significant revenue from employing armies of staff on trains/providing CCTV
and monitoring it, as they have a captive market who have no choice but to
use their services.

Witness the state of the 465 Networkers that operate on the suburban
London/Kent routes. They are virtually left to the will of vandals in the
evenings, and Connex are quite happy to allow this to happen - so long as
the trains can still move along the tracks, can still get the season ticket
holders into London within about 30 mins of the arrival time, they know that
commuters such as me have no choice but to slum it on their services.

Vandalism will sadly have to get a lot worse for serious action to be taken.
But I believe action will be taken one day, and once again a largely
graffiti and vandalism-free railway will return.

Nick

3) Probably not a very good idea, but do as they do in New York and
sometimes in Bristol. Use the older vehicles at night and save the
better
ones for the day.

This all costs money (or more money) of which there is no incentive for
many
TOCs to provide. Connex and other London commuter TOCs will not get any
significant revenue from employing armies of staff on trains/providing
CCTV
and monitoring it, as they have a captive market who have no choice but to
use their services.


There would not be a high charge for the latter, however the HSE would have
something to say. On average, every year LU pays £10million 'correcting'
vandals' work. Surely they could find a building and link up the trains for
about £100million. Or, have someone in the back of the train and make use of
the current platform monitors.

Joe Patrick wrote:
On average, every year LU pays £10million 'correcting'
vandals' work.

This is a useful statistic. Thank you.

Now, it would cost about the same to employ 400 extra people. They
probably wouldn't stop it all, but they would also make money by
reducing ticketless travel and increasing ticketed travel by making the
tube less frightening to use at night.

Let's have 200 people operating an extra shift at stations that are
currently unmanned some of the time. 75 can be roving ticket
inspectors/deterrents. Another 50 can watch screens and direct the
others to signs of trouble. and the last 75 can be extra BTP policemen.
I think that lot would show a profit, make the tube a much nicer system
to use, and probably cut vandalism and ticket evasion by about 80% each.

Of course, you'd then have to stop the bean-counters saying "Look, we've
only got a little vandalism and evasion now - let's get rid of these
people again."

This is the sort of argument that all but eliminated the beat policeman
- the crime prevented by their presence didn't get counted.

The ONLY way to stop vandalism is to increase the chance of getting
caught. The severity of the punishment is of secondary importance.

Surely they could find a building and link up the trains for
about £100million. Or, have someone in the back of the train and make use of
the current platform monitors.

See above. We want revenue expenditure, not capital, to give permanent
benefit.


Colin McKenzie

"Colin McKenzie" wrote in message
...
Joe Patrick wrote:
On average, every year LU pays £10million 'correcting'
vandals' work.

This is a useful statistic. Thank you.

Now, it would cost about the same to employ 400 extra people. They
probably wouldn't stop it all, but they would also make money by
reducing ticketless travel and increasing ticketed travel by making the
tube less frightening to use at night.

Let's have 200 people operating an extra shift at stations that are
currently unmanned some of the time. 75 can be roving ticket
inspectors/deterrents. Another 50 can watch screens and direct the
others to signs of trouble. and the last 75 can be extra BTP policemen.
I think that lot would show a profit, make the tube a much nicer system
to use, and probably cut vandalism and ticket evasion by about 80% each.

Of course, you'd then have to stop the bean-counters saying "Look, we've
only got a little vandalism and evasion now - let's get rid of these
people again."

This is the sort of argument that all but eliminated the beat policeman
- the crime prevented by their presence didn't get counted.

The ONLY way to stop vandalism is to increase the chance of getting
caught. The severity of the punishment is of secondary importance.

Surely they could find a building and link up the trains for
about £100million. Or, have someone in the back of the train and make
use of
the current platform monitors.

See above. We want revenue expenditure, not capital, to give permanent
benefit.

Some excellent thoughts, I can only see one obstacle. It's far too close to
common sense.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:27:50 +0100 Colin McKenzie wrote:
}
} The ONLY way to stop vandalism is to increase the chance of getting
} caught. The severity of the punishment is of secondary importance.

It's my thought that the only way to stop vandalism is educating the
kids, which means educating the parents bringing them up, which means...

By the time they've become active vandals it's far too late.

Matthew
--
Il est important d'être un homme ou une femme en colère; le jour où nous
quitte la colère, ou le désir, c'est cuit. - Barbara

http://www.calmeilles.co.uk/

"Nick" wrote:

Vandalism will sadly have to get a lot worse for serious action to be
taken.
But I believe action will be taken one day, and once again a largely
graffiti and vandalism-free railway will return.

I'm inclined to believe this, but I wonder what the 'tipping point' will be
that will force the hand of the various railway stakeholders? I feel
vandalism couldn't get a lot worse 'south of the river', but I worry that
the thugs will turn to random (and endemic) attacks/muggings of passengers
and staff before any action is taken to restore order. What the 'answer' is,
I haven't a clue.

Chris

"Nick" wrote:

Vandalism will sadly have to get a lot worse for serious action to be
taken.
But I believe action will be taken one day, and once again a largely
graffiti and vandalism-free railway will return.

I'm inclined to believe this, but I wonder what the 'tipping point' will
be
that will force the hand of the various railway stakeholders? I feel
vandalism couldn't get a lot worse 'south of the river', but I worry that
the thugs will turn to random (and endemic) attacks/muggings of passengers
and staff before any action is taken to restore order. What the 'answer'
is,
I haven't a clue.

Chris

I travel alot from London Northwards (Essex) and have found vandalism to be
no way near as bad on the trains as south of the river (Connex etc).

I have seen a ticket collector on a WAGN train getting loads of hassle from
some youths though, who had no tickets. They didn't pay up either.

I think muggings/attacks will increase, late at night I feel pretty unsafe
on trains. But what can be done ?

"Stewart" wrote in message
...

"Nick" wrote:

Vandalism will sadly have to get a lot worse for serious action to be
taken.
But I believe action will be taken one day, and once again a largely
graffiti and vandalism-free railway will return.

I'm inclined to believe this, but I wonder what the 'tipping point' will
be
that will force the hand of the various railway stakeholders? I feel
vandalism couldn't get a lot worse 'south of the river', but I worry
that
the thugs will turn to random (and endemic) attacks/muggings of
passengers
and staff before any action is taken to restore order. What the 'answer'
is,
I haven't a clue.

Chris

I travel alot from London Northwards (Essex) and have found vandalism to
be
no way near as bad on the trains as south of the river (Connex etc).

I have seen a ticket collector on a WAGN train getting loads of hassle
from
some youths though, who had no tickets. They didn't pay up either.

I think muggings/attacks will increase, late at night I feel pretty unsafe
on trains. But what can be done ?

Some ideas:

1. Ticket barriers at every station
2. Security guards / police patrols for stations and trains
3. A women-only carriage for late-night services.
4. CCTV on trains that actually works and is monitored.
5. Contracts with TOCs that have clauses about the condition of trains.

Some ideas:

1. Ticket barriers at every station
2. Security guards / police patrols for stations and trains
3. A women-only carriage for late-night services.
4. CCTV on trains that actually works and is monitored.
5. Contracts with TOCs that have clauses about the condition of trains.

I feel very silly for saying this, but maybe we could learn from Thames
Trains by getting security guards to back up Revenue protection staff.
After 10 years the system would pay for itself. 1 staff member could monitor
5 or so DOO trains from a control centre who could be paid lets say £20
grand a year. On trains with other staff they can monitor the train
themselves. They can then contact the driver of the train or the
BTP/Security staff who can deal with the matter.

As Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:53:04 +0100 appeared fresh and rosy-fingered,
"Ed Crowley" wrote:


"Stewart" wrote in message
...

I think muggings/attacks will increase, late at night I feel pretty unsafe
on trains. But what can be done ?

Some ideas:

1. Ticket barriers at every station
2. Security guards / police patrols for stations and trains
3. A women-only carriage for late-night services.

Aren't (young-) men more at risk than women? I know there is a widely
held view that if an 18 year old female is attacked it is a serious
crime, but if an 18 year old male is attacked "he needs to learn to
look after himself", but in terms of actual violent assaults I'm sure
I've read that males are more at risk.

Segregating 153s could be tricky :-) You would also need some way of
enforcing the rule. Would people be willing to sit in the luggage
racks on packed-to-the-roof trains, when there was plenty of space in
an adjacent women-only coach?

4. CCTV on trains that actually works and is monitored.
5. Contracts with TOCs that have clauses about the condition of trains.

--
Arthur Figgis