On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:55:48 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

It would be unenforceable and potentially dangerous at those places
where there is open, cross platform interchange between NR and LU. These
locations are impossible to gate - hence why there aren't any - and it
is not practical to install huge quantities of validators in order to
make validation "convenient".

Isn't it? The equipment is not that costly. The Netherlands is
starting to install two such boxes at every set of doors on every bus
and tram.

What would be the consequence to
Travelcard holders if they did not validate?

For consistency, I imagine it would have to be a gbp5 "penalty" as it
is for PAYG.

I cannot see a form of
"penalty" being accepted by holders of Travelcards given how long the
product has been in place. Apart from some possible revenue loss on the
basis you postulate what does TfL lose apart from some card and usage
data?

Consistency and understandability, not to mention saving money by not
having to deploy (as many) RPIs at the outer ends of the network.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:35:13 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:55:48 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

It would be unenforceable and potentially dangerous at those places
where there is open, cross platform interchange between NR and LU. These
locations are impossible to gate - hence why there aren't any - and it
is not practical to install huge quantities of validators in order to
make validation "convenient".

Isn't it? The equipment is not that costly. The Netherlands is
starting to install two such boxes at every set of doors on every bus
and tram.

There are far too many physical constraints and passenger volumes are
much higher than the Netherlands. I cannot foresee a day where the
platforms between the Central Line and "one" at Stratford, as just one
example, could either be gated on the interchange or even have enough
validators on poles or fixed to walls to cope with the rapid and high
volume interchange that occurs there. There are plenty of other
locations where you run into the same issue. I know - I spent enough
time in the planning stage of Prestige examining these issues.

The Netherlands may well be installing such equipment but it remains to
be seen if they can make the system work. Is the equipment solely for
validation on entry or is it for also for exit? If exit then I fear
they will have a huge problem on their hands. Exit validation works in
Singapore but let's just say their regime and sense of societal
compliance is a tad different from the UK or Netherlands. I love the
Netherlands as a place and admire much about their transport system but
their fraud control policies left a lot to be desired last time I was
there (a pretty long time ago I will concede). The only strategy to
control matters on the trams was to reinstall conductors and have
boarding at the rear. From memory evasion levels were well into double
figures and folklore said the trams were "free" - a refrain we now hear
about TfL's bendy buses. Now it is possible that things have moved on a
long way but I somehow doubt it. The Dutch national smartcard scheme is
a nice idea but there are some formidable issues to deal with in getting
it work in a way that the Dutch will consider to be fair when set
against the Strippenkaart system. I know you are much more up to date
with all of this than me so perhaps you can give an update on how well
it is going?

What would be the consequence to
Travelcard holders if they did not validate?

For consistency, I imagine it would have to be a gbp5 "penalty" as it
is for PAYG.

While every (non pass or permit encoded) Oyster card as PAYG
functionality within it not everyone opts to load cash to it. If you
regularly travel beyond your zones then you may find it convenient to
hold a cash balance. If you are a commuter who makes a set journey every
day on a valid Travelcard and does not stray from that then why should
you be forced to give TfL cash or have to reload your card with value
because it's gone negative just because there is not an entry or exit
validation? I don't see the benefit to TfL outweighing the
stakeholder / press / public downside - something TfL is very aware of
simply because of the accountability to the Mayor. It would also
provide a powerful disincentive for current NR magnetic ticket holders
to switch to Oyster when they can happily use such a ticket without such
a penalty being levied. There is enough complaint about Oyster being
useless for NR ticket holders already - why make it worse?

I cannot see a form of
"penalty" being accepted by holders of Travelcards given how long the
product has been in place. Apart from some possible revenue loss on the
basis you postulate what does TfL lose apart from some card and usage
data?

Consistency and understandability, not to mention saving money by not
having to deploy (as many) RPIs at the outer ends of the network.

These are not benefits that the travelling public would particularly
notice or understand. IMO it would not take too much of a "campaign"
from people who felt suitably aggrieved or inconvenienced to make such a
policy unravel. I genuinely think it would be very hard for TfL for
defend it unless there was some demonstrable benefit for passengers. The
only one that there is relates to auto extension beyond Travelcard
validity using PAYG and that's easy to sell, convenient for passengers
and a genuine bonus for them from using smartcard technology.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:46:21 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

The Netherlands may well be installing such equipment but it remains to
be seen if they can make the system work. Is the equipment solely for
validation on entry or is it for also for exit?

Also for exit.

If exit then I fear
they will have a huge problem on their hands. Exit validation works in
Singapore but let's just say their regime and sense of societal
compliance is a tad different from the UK or Netherlands.

This is true - but if there is an automatic penalty for not touching
out, people will end up doing so in order to avoid voting with their
wallet.

From memory evasion levels were well into double
figures and folklore said the trams were "free" - a refrain we now hear
about TfL's bendy buses.

Given that my observation (limited to Den Haag) is that the only
penalty for not having stamped your Strippenkaart is to be told to
stamp it, I think they may be slightly missing the point

The Dutch national smartcard scheme is
a nice idea but there are some formidable issues to deal with in getting
it work in a way that the Dutch will consider to be fair when set
against the Strippenkaart system. I know you are much more up to date
with all of this than me so perhaps you can give an update on how well
it is going?

I've only really been able to observe what's been going on rather than
being properly involved in its implementation - but I agree there may
be issues. The move to stage-type rather than zonal pricing may be an
obstacle, and the issue of how to use two cards if you have two
disposable ones (no value can be added to these) with a bit of value
on each has not been addressed, and might be better addressed by going
for one type of card like London. There is also the fact that people
are used to taking a friend with them on their Strippenkaart - this
won't be possible any more either.

Consistency and understandability, not to mention saving money by not
having to deploy (as many) RPIs at the outer ends of the network.

These are not benefits that the travelling public would particularly
notice or understand.

This is true.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 9 Jun, 20:59, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 18:44:47 +0100, ocoro02 wrote:
Got some Oyster Travelcard questions.
I need to travel from Twickenham to Wimbledon on South West Trains on a
regular basis.
It looks like I need to buy a zone 5 to a zone 3 travelcard.

You will need a Zones 3-6 Travelcard, if you wish to travel on the
through train service. A 3-5 will only do if you go via Putney and
East Putney.

When I 'renew' or 'recharge' the travelcard for the first time - is
this done by simply pinging your Oyster card on a reader at the
designated pick-up station,

Yes.

Will this work on any reader at the designated station?

I think so, apart from the ones on the ticket machines (if any).

I had to choose Wimbledon as the pick-up station because Twickenham
doesn't provide renew/recharge. I guess I have to pay for the very
first journey on the first day (Twickenham - Wimbledon)?

Yes.

Seems a bit
unfair as I'll be paying for the same journey twice (I've paid for the
travelcard for that day already).

You could cancel the transaction, and do one of the following:

- have the Travelcard season on Oyster delivered to your home
- buy your Travelcard season on Oyster from an Oyster Ticket Stop
(newsagent) in Twickenham (see TfL website for locations)
- buy a paper Travelcard season from the ticket office at Twickenham.

Really depends what route you are going to use.
Zones 3-6 if you take the direct train from Twickenham to Wimbledon.
This isn't a very frequent route and no great saving of time.
But if a train is on the platform then I guess you'r rather take it.

Zones 2-5 you'll take the more frequent trains to Clapham Junction and
then change
to the frequent trains to Wimbledon. Using that route all the time
means you wont risk being labelled a fare dodger if caught in zone 6.

Depending on what you do with your time, having a card with zone 2
will probably be more helpful when you travel into London for leisure.
As you just need to pay the zone 2 to zone 1 extension. Not sure if
having zone 6 is a benefit to you.
Remember you can use the buses in any zone with either of these season
tickets.

As for buying the Oyster. You can buy seasons at a newsagents.
Buying online and nominating a station is a right pain if you don't
live near a station with Oyster. And of course you are stuck if you
don't have a local newsagents nearby or for instance it is not open.

Buses in *any* zone? It's not too clear from the Ts & Cs but would be good

Londoncityslicker wrote:

Zones 2-5 you'll take the more frequent trains to Clapham Junction and
then change to the frequent trains to Wimbledon.

Precisely. Why go to the Zone 6 backwater when the lovely fast SWT
trains to CLJ connect pretty well with the considerably more grotty SWT
Wimbledon trains.

Also do you *need* a travelcard? My journey to Richmond has a non
travelcard "Not London" fare and season ticket price considerably
cheaper.. I'd consider buying the odd buss pass/bag of saver tickets
when I need them and save a few quid.

mf

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:35:22 +0100, ocoro02
wrote:


Londoncityslicker Wrote:

Remember you can use the buses in any zone with either of these season
tickets.

Buses in *any* zone? It's not too clear from the Ts & Cs but would be
good

Not would be good but is good. A travelcard valid for say Z23 is valid
on all TfL routes in Greater London and also to the end of those routes
where they cross the boundary - for example to Slough, Dorking, Epsom,
Dartford and Brentwood to name a few. This applies for all Travelcard
combinations and whether for one day or 7 days or longer (season
tickets). In addition validity in 3, 4, 5 or 6 gives validity
throughout the Tramlink network in South London.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...April-2007.pdf

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

(Neil Williams) wrote in
:

An easier way to solve it would be to make touching in/out mandatory
for all Oyster holders regardless of the type of ticket held, rather
than just for PAYG. I'm surprised, in general, that that approach has
not been taken.

Neil


There would be (at least) two problems with this:

a) On national rail (where pre-pay is not yet valid) Oyster readers are
often provided at (gated) London Termini but not at suburban stations.

b) You may be making a journey beyond the validity of your season ticket
and have bought a paper ticket to cover the extension.

Both create unresolved journeys which are perfectely legitimate (when the
ticket loaded onto Oyster is a travelcard season).

David

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:19:22 +0100, Mystery Flyer wrote:

Zones 2-5 you'll take the more frequent trains to Clapham Junction and
then change to the frequent trains to Wimbledon.

Precisely. Why go to the Zone 6 backwater when the lovely fast SWT
trains to CLJ connect pretty well with the considerably more grotty SWT
Wimbledon trains.

Also do you *need* a travelcard? My journey to Richmond has a non
travelcard "Not London" fare and season ticket price considerably
cheaper.. I'd consider buying the odd buss pass/bag of saver tickets
when I need them and save a few quid.

Unfortunately there is no point-to-point NR season available for this
journey.

However, after a bit of digging, there's one available from Kew
Gardens to Wimbledon at £60.70 for a monthly. Valid routes for this
are Kew Gardens - Richmond - Twickenham - Hounslow - Brentford -
Clapham Junction - Wimbledon (which covers the Twickenham-Richmond
part), and Kew Gardens - Richmond - Mortlake - Clapham Junction -
Wimbledon (which covers the rest).

Technically, it doesn't appear to be valid via Kingston, although a
ticket inspector (who is unlikely to know this) would probably give
you the benefit of the doubt, as it's a fairly 'obvious' route
(because it involves the least number of changes).

On Jun 12, 10:22 pm, David Jackman wrote:
(Neil Williams) wrote :

An easier way to solve it would be to make touching in/out mandatory
for all Oyster holders regardless of the type of ticket held, rather
than just for PAYG. I'm surprised, in general, that that approach has
not been taken.

Neil

There would be (at least) two problems with this:

a) On national rail (where pre-pay is not yet valid) Oyster readers are
often provided at (gated) London Termini but not at suburban stations.


More likely the other way round on SWT, where Waterloo has no gates
but many suburban stations do (not just the ones shared by LU).



b) You may be making a journey beyond the validity of your season ticket
and have bought a paper ticket to cover the extension.

Both create unresolved journeys which are perfectely legitimate (when the
ticket loaded onto Oyster is a travelcard season).


This is already a problem on LU with paper travelcards from NR, but no
provision is made for extensions on LU (as I've complained at length).




David