"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Crowley
writes
I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would
help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden
to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, there's a loop on the Charing Cross branch, which is why you often
see K via CX trains but rarely K via Bank ones.

But if you split the line up like that then you'll get a *lot* of
passengers changing at Camden Town and Kennington. The stations probably
aren't up to handing the relevant passenger loads in the peak. It
*might* be possible to fix the former when they completely rebuild it,
but even so it'll be unpopular with the people who now have a change
added to their daily commute.

The main problem with the Northern line (from my POV) is that after having
one train every 1 or 2 minutes, you get a gap of 8 minutes which leads to
overcrowding. If splitting up the line could mean a train every 2 minutes
(not this 2-8 minutes nonsense), I think it would be popular.

If you split into two lines then the obvious split is Edgware-Charing
X branch, Barnet-Bank Branch because that would mean there would be
no need for the trains to cross at Camden Town.

While some dislike changing trains, at least everyone will know which
Southbound platform to be on at Camden Town.

The driver did not answer why 5 consecutive trains ran through to
Edgware before one going through to the Barnet branch. This has also
often happened the other way.

Is there nobody there with intelligence who can re-direct one train
when that happens so you would have 2 to Edgware 1 to Barnet, 2 to
Edgware instead of 5 to Edgware.

How are the destinations decided and why does this "clumping" occur so
often?

"Dave" wrote in message
...
nmtop40 writes
If you split into two lines then the obvious split is Edgware-Charing
X branch, Barnet-Bank Branch because that would mean there would be no
need for the trains to cross at Camden Town.

In fact, the Bank branch route actually runs to the *west* of the
Charing X route after leaving Camden Town - so following your logic, it
should be EdgwareBank and BarnetCharing X.

However, it's a moot point as the trains don't need to 'cross' at Camden
Town - at least not in the sense that I suspect you are thinking of.
There are non-conflicting routes available which means that trains do
not have to cross 'on the flat'.

Have a look at Tubeprune's diagram;
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Trains do have to 'cross' at present as both City and Charing X trains go to
Egdware and High Barnet/Mill Hill East. Splitting the line into Edgware via
City and High Barnet via Charing X would solve this problem.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Rob writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built to allow for a
future conversion to Central line style automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if atp/ato contorllers
have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were built with the
buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO. they were never used and were taken
out (those that hadn't already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.
--
Cheers, Steve.
If The Good Lord had meant for us to be fiscally prudent, He would not have
given us the platinum credit card...
Change colour to PC Plod's lights to reply.

Steve Dulieu writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built to allow for a
future conversion to Central line style automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if atp/ato contorllers
have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were built with the
buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO. they were never used and were taken
out (those that hadn't already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.

But if the Northern line is due for resignalling sometime soon, then it
increases the chances. Having new trains and new signalling within a
(relatively) short period of time - as with the Central line - means
that ATO can be considered.

But you're right - expecting improvement to PT in this country is
probably foolish. Assume the worst and occasionally be pleasantly
surprised!

--
Dave

Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Dave" wrote in
message ...
Rob writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built
to allow for a future conversion to Central line style
automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if
atp/ato contorllers have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were
built with the buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO. they
were never used and were taken out (those that hadn't
already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.

The wiring etc for OPO operation was in place in 73s when first introduced
bt there were no buttons in the cab other than those for opening and closing
the doors.

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
...

"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...
Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Dave" wrote in
message ...
Rob writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built
to allow for a future conversion to Central line style
automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if
atp/ato contorllers have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were
built with the buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO. they
were never used and were taken out (those that hadn't
already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.

The wiring etc for OPO operation was in place in 73s when first
introduced
bt there were no buttons in the cab other than those for opening and
closing
the doors.

I must have been seeing things for those 10 years I was driving them for
then...

I was working them from 1976 til 1984, you?

"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
...

"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...
Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Dave" wrote in
message ...
Rob writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built
to allow for a future conversion to Central line style
automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if
atp/ato contorllers have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were
built with the buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO. they
were never used and were taken out (those that hadn't
already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.

The wiring etc for OPO operation was in place in 73s when first
introduced
bt there were no buttons in the cab other than those for opening and
closing
the doors.

I must have been seeing things for those 10 years I was driving them for
then...

I was working them from 1976 til 1984, you?

'85 to '01 (I realise this is more than 10 years, I knocked some off for
being a guard, displaced by OPO, few years driving refurbs (may their
designer roast in hell)) on the back at first then on the front from about
'90 onwards. The driver's panel was covered by a large perspex panel secured
by 6 xhead screws, beneath which were the speedo, air gauge, a couple of
indicator lights, ISTR a red one and a blue one (de-icing fluid?) and below
and between the gauges two ATO buttons (more often than not, one or both
were missing leaving just the holes) which were gradually replaced by a pair
of blanking plates.
--
Cheers, Steve.
If The Good Lord had meant for us to be fiscally prudent, He would not have
given us the platinum credit card...
Change colour to PC Plod's lights to reply.

Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in
message
...

"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...
Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Dave" wrote in
message ...
Rob writes
I wonder if the current Northern line trains were
built
to allow for a future conversion to Central line
style
automatic train operation.

yes they are, all the buttons are there, not sure if
atp/ato contorllers have been installed.

Good news!

I wouldn't hold your breath, '73 stock (Piccadilly) were
built with the buttons to allow for Victoria like ATO.
they
were never used and were taken out (those that hadn't
already fallen out) when the stock got refurbed.

The wiring etc for OPO operation was in place in 73s
when first introduced bt there were no buttons in the
cab other than those for opening and closing the doors.

I must have been seeing things for those 10 years I was
driving them for then...

I was working them from 1976 til 1984, you?

'85 to '01 (I realise this is more than 10 years, I knocked
some off for being a guard, displaced by OPO, few years
driving refurbs (may their designer roast in hell)) on the
back at first then on the front from about '90 onwards.
The driver's panel was covered by a large perspex panel
secured by 6 xhead screws, beneath which were the speedo,
air gauge, a couple of indicator lights, ISTR a red one and
a blue one (de-icing fluid?) and below and between the
gauges two ATO buttons (more often than not, one or both
were missing leaving just the holes) which were gradually
replaced by a pair of blanking plates.

I recall the blanking plates and at the time I was on the Picc we were
always led to believe that 73s were wired and set up for OPO. The Drivers
Control Switch and Guards Position Switch only needing a bar to conect them
so they could be operated with a single key and all the wiring in place in
the desk for the buttons etc as you've indicated.

As introduced the .perspex panel wasn't there, that came later after it was
realised that tea/coffee and electrics don't mix, someone somewhere was
under the impression that traincrew didn't need to drink tea or coffee.

If you're interested I'll email you copies of the cab diagrams we were
supplied with during stock training.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:03:44 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , nmtop40
writes

snip

Is there nobody there with intelligence who can re-direct one train
when that happens so you would have 2 to Edgware 1 to Barnet, 2 to
Edgware instead of 5 to Edgware.

It's not that simple. You end up with trains in the wrong place for the
rest of the day's service, drivers unable to get to the right train, and
so on.

How are the destinations decided

There is a complete timetable for the line which shows exactly where
each train should be and when. All the destinations for a train for the
whole day are preplanned.

But presumably not with strings of four or five trains going to one
terminus and no service to the other for twenty minutes or more! That
and the dot-matrix displays -- currently about as good at predicting
the future as goat entrails -- are two of the more entertaining
aspects of the service at the mo'...

Would it not be possible to dynamically redo the timetable during the
day, to take account of changes occuring after the start of play? I
appreciate that this is non-trivial, and I expect there are a lot of
implications for rostering, but it's the sort of thing that might be
feasible with today's IT that wasn't just a few years back.

Perhaps some modern-day Mr Beck could thrash it out on his home PC
before demonstrating it to management?

R