Peter Crosland wrote:
They have the same status as a STOP sign and there does not need
to be any other for them to take effect.

Richard J replied:
In what way does a box junction have the same status as a Stop sign?
You don't have to stop *before* crossing them, and stopping *on* them
is allowed if you are waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic.

"Peter Crosland" then wrote:
In the sense that it is a road sign. Parking restrictions and bus lanes
require statutory notices to be published to allow them to be enforced.

Many road-signs (as well as markings) DO require statutory notices
(Traffic Orders) to make them enforceable, for example a 'no right
turn' sign does. So does a 'no entry' sign. But a yellow box
doesn't.

In message , Robin
Smith writes
As I said, I do intend to pay the fine (which will double if I do not
do so soon), but what with all these loop holes associated with bus
lane cameras and speed cameras, I was genuinely interested in knowing
whether there were similar loop holes associated with box junctions.

Since the penalty notice my awareness of box junctions has increased,
and my driving improved, so good will come of this. I am not the type
of person to challenge the law when I know I have done wrong.

And next time you can't get through a junction because some
self-centred idiot who doesn't give a **** about anyone else apart from
him (or her) self and getting where they want to go is blocking the
junction. You just keep your fingers crossed and pray to God that the
idiot blocking all the traffic manages to find a loop-hole and get out
of paying that fine.
--
CJG

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:20 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about turning
into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it says "if they are
already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've seen a lot of pedestrians
treating sideroads as if they were zebra crossings - ie as if they have the
right to hold traffic up indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is
clear before crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to
cross a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it
was safe to do so.

While many may be doing this just out of stubbornness, it's useful to
know that, in Germany, pedestrians legally have the right of way over
turning cars at this kind of junction. Indeed, the pedestrian lights
turn green when the traffic lights are still green in one direction.

It took some getting used to when travelling back home from Germany by
train via London - after being beeped a few times in London I
remembered the UK's different traffic laws!

Neil

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , Roland Perry
writes
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road
(see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your
exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when
you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming
traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop.

The wording appears to have changed. It *was* something like "...
oncoming traffic going ahead or also turning right". In other words,
*one* car can wait on the box to turn right from each direction, but
that's all; the second car in each queue must wait to enter the box,
just as when going straight ahead.

Is this one of those cases where the London habit of turning right involves
passing off-side to off-side with the other turning traffic, instead of the
system used everywhere else of passing nearside to nearside? The other
traffic waiting to turn right may be travelling in the opposite direction.
--
Terry Harper
http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Neil Williams wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:20 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

Seeing the above Highway Code URL has reminded me of the rule about
turning into a road where pedestrians are crossing. Notice that it
says "if they are already crossing". As a cyclist and a driver, I've
seen a lot of pedestrians treating sideroads as if they were zebra
crossings - ie as if they have the right to hold traffic up
indefinitely, rather than waiting until the road is clear before
crossing :-( As a pedestrian, I wouldn't dream of starting to cross
a road (except on a zebra crossing or a pelican crossing) unless it
was safe to do so.

While many may be doing this just out of stubbornness, it's useful to
know that, in Germany, pedestrians legally have the right of way over
turning cars at this kind of junction. Indeed, the pedestrian lights
turn green when the traffic lights are still green in one direction.

It's the same in France. It saves having a separate pedestrian phase on the
lights, thus improving the traffic capacity of the junction but without
reducing pedestrian facilities. A bit too radical for the UK safety mafia
though.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Roland Perry wrote in message .. .


Yes, but the road to the right might have been clear when you first
entered the box.

However, I suppose if we look closely, the offence is *entering* a box
junction at the worn time. Not being sat in a legally entered box
junction feeling like a prat and blocking the traffic...
It's interesting to observe all the discussion about the confusion
over what is allowed when turning right in a box junction. Alas, the
box junction in question on the North Circular where I received the
penalty had no right turn junction (only traffic merging from the
left, and crossing from the right) - so there is no excuse here.

Perhaps they do not have box junction cameras as such "right enabled"
box junctions?

Robin

In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road
(see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your
exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when
you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming
traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
-- Highway Code

I'm amazed by those who didn't know this, since it came up as one of the
questions the first time I passed the driving test well over 20 years ago.

It seems to me that this advice is rather naive, because it assumes that
the only impediment to the "car in front of you that's also waiting to
turn right" is the flow of oncoming traffic - which will eventually
stop.

The wording appears to have changed. It *was* something like "... oncoming
traffic going ahead or also turning right". In other words, *one* car can wait
on the box to turn right from each direction, but that's all; the second car in
each queue must wait to enter the box, just as when going straight ahead.

Yes, and some people are assuming that the junction is a cross roads. It
might just as well be a right turn only (from the right turning
vehicle's point of view) which means that being the second vehicle to
enter the box waiting to turn right doesn't actually obstruct anyone.
--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:38:53 GMT, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

The "approved" method of turning right, as described in the Highway Code and
Roadcraft is to pass offside to offside (ie with the drivers' sides next to
each other) as this gives each driver a clear view of the oncoming traffic
so he can judge when it's safe for him to turn.

It also means that no car is turning in front of oncoming traffic. So
if the oncoming car is in fact intending to go straight ahead rather
than turn right (perhaps an indicator left on by mistake), there will
not be an accident.

--
Cynic

In article ,
says...
"K" wrote in message
...

But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-)

The law makes clear that this is allowed (if you are turning right),
even though the highway code does not.

Except you'll still get fined. That situatuion was what caused me to
get my one and only fine.


--
________________________
Conor Turton

ICQ:31909763
________________________

In article , Conor
writes
But what if your exit road is clear when you go into the box, but gets
blocked by oncoming cars turning left and then witing in a queue? :-)

The law makes clear that this is allowed (if you are turning right),
even though the highway code does not.

Except you'll still get fined. That situatuion was what caused me to
get my one and only fine.

Sounds like a miscarriage of justice. Take it to the Appeal Court !!
--
"It used to be that what a writer did was type a bit and then stare out of the
window a bit, type a bit, stare out of the window a bit. Networked computers
make these two activities converge, because now the thing you type on and the
window you stare out of are the same thing" - Douglas Adams 28/1/99.