"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
ups.com...
Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days. Then, not
only is there no chance of you losing your ticket or leaving it at
home, but you also cannot fraudulently transfer it to anyone else.
Furthermore, if you ever got lost and insensible, they would know
where to return you. It could also be updated while you were having a
bath by passing the signal down the water pipe.

I thought that they were trying out fingerprint technology. It would indeed
be interesting to walk through gates or onto a bus and only touch a read pad
as you go through with your thumb.

I wonder, actually, if it would be workable on a bus as your thumb does not
contain information the way that a SmartCard does.

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:26:38 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:59:37 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

Eh? Surely you put cash on the card and it's irrelevant who added it or
who deducts it provided there are systems to reconcile the card and
distribute the payments due against travel undertaken?

I'm not terribly au fait with ITSO but I thought the whole point of it
was that any suitable technically compliant card could hold / recognise
the ITSO specification and associated "product profiles" for each TOC

AIUI (I could be out of date, I've been out of EPOS for a long while)
there isn't currently any such concept as "cash on a card". Banks might
one day be able to issue cards that can hold cash, backed by their legally
mandated reserves in the same way as other accounts. But at present LUL
are just letting you pre-pay for their service with a fancy chip card to
record your pre-payment, which doesn't bring it within the legal reach
of either cash or credit regulations.

You could have "credit on a card", with the credit backed by the
card issuer. The product would just hold the amount of your current
credit with the particular issuer(s). One day all credit cards might
work that way, rather than the antiquated chip-and-pin bodge the UK has
only just got round to rolling out. I *think* I'm right in saying that
this is what Oyster would become if we went the Octopus route of paying
for small goods with your Oyster. I presume LUL would continue to only
give you credit against an equivalent deposit ! But it still wouldn't
be cash on the card, unless maybe LUL became a bank.

Cards with bank-backed stored value (essentially cash-on-a-card) have been
trialled a couple of times in small areas in the UK, but both fizzled
out about 10 years ago in a blaze of non-publicity. I never found out
the results of the trials and the reasons they weren't taken any further,
despite an interest in the subject.

ITSO (again AIUI, though I've not read in depth) is more about a
defined way to hold several products (so you could have one card
holding a couple of season tickets and some stored PAYG travel credits
and maybe your library card plus some credit value from your favourite
coffee shop) rather than either a way to hold cash or a way to use
those products.

I know you've actually worked on this stuff Paul, so please correct me
if wrong !

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (now updated!) ... So express yourself

In message , at 22:26:38 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

We need to be clear what is meant by "at a TOC" here.

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as
you leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which
prepay reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:45:56 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007,
Nick Leverton remarked:

AIUI (I could be out of date, I've been out of EPOS for a long while)
there isn't currently any such concept as "cash on a card". Banks might
one day be able to issue cards that can hold cash, backed by their legally
mandated reserves in the same way as other accounts. But at present LUL
are just letting you pre-pay for their service with a fancy chip card to
record your pre-payment, which doesn't bring it within the legal reach
of either cash or credit regulations.

It doesn't feel like that to me (and yes, I know the legal position is a
complex one).

On my Oyster Card I have about ten quid of money that as far as I am
concerned is deposited with "bank of Tfl", and might one day be used to
pay for travel (as-I-go), or [I believe] I can get refunded. And there
has been at least some expectation that you might one day be able to use
the same card to pay for (from the same money deposit) a can of drink
from a machine, or a newspaper from WHS. But the important thing is that
my balance is expressed in money.

Whereas my Nottingham bus ticket has four days of travel left, and I
wouldn't expect to either be able to get a refund or use it for buying
ad-hoc items. All I can do is "enjoy" my four days of travel [as it's a
carnet, any four days, but they also do season-ticket versions].

You could have "credit on a card", with the credit backed by the
card issuer. The product would just hold the amount of your current
credit with the particular issuer(s). One day all credit cards might
work that way, rather than the antiquated chip-and-pin bodge the UK has
only just got round to rolling out.

This is the new Wave and Pay cards, I presume.

I *think* I'm right in saying that this is what Oyster would become if
we went the Octopus route of paying for small goods with your Oyster. I
presume LUL would continue to only give you credit against an
equivalent deposit ! But it still wouldn't be cash on the card, unless
maybe LUL became a bank.

Feels like cash on the card. How else can it be described?

Cards with bank-backed stored value (essentially cash-on-a-card) have been
trialled a couple of times in small areas in the UK, but both fizzled
out about 10 years ago in a blaze of non-publicity.

I have an Amex "Plastic Card Travellers Cheque", which feels just like
that - you top it up with money, then use it to buy things using the
standard credit card infrastructure (and ATMs). They promoted them about
a year ago.

I never found out the results of the trials and the reasons they
weren't taken any further, despite an interest in the subject.

The Post Office has recently started promoting a very similar thing:

http://news.cheapflights.co.uk/fligh...y_money_c.html

and Google seems to think LLoyds has one too.

ITSO (again AIUI, though I've not read in depth) is more about a
defined way to hold several products (so you could have one card
holding a couple of season tickets and some stored PAYG travel credits
and maybe your library card plus some credit value from your favourite
coffee shop) rather than either a way to hold cash or a way to use
those products.

What I think I need is the "Perry Purse" I described yesterday. Forget
trying to be ITSO (or any single standard) compliant. Or even one
banker. Have something that's a chameleon and adapts to the requirement
(with either several chips, or an adaptable one), and which can give me
readouts of all the various balances (either in prepay, carnets, or
available-to-spend if credit). And with increasing amounts of
International travel, it's perhaps the only way to have something that
also pays for your metro ticket in Paris or New York (always assuming
those places end up with *some* sort of contactless system eventually).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 21:59:06 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, Arthur Figgis remarked:
They are converting the Amsterdam public transport to some sort of
Oyster-like system quite soon now. So less moaning about the problems
of finding a ticket machine there that'll take credit cards, but it's
one more bit of dedicated plastic to carry everywhere

Though presumably that is the card that will - in theory - one day -
work on almost all public transport in the Netherlands (not sure about
NS)?

It sounds like a sensible ambition. I'm assuming phase-1 will work
between Schiphol and Centraal, but I will need to check this out next
time I'm there.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:45:56 +0000 (UTC), Nick Leverton
wrote:

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:26:38 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:59:37 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

Eh? Surely you put cash on the card and it's irrelevant who added it or
who deducts it provided there are systems to reconcile the card and
distribute the payments due against travel undertaken?

I'm not terribly au fait with ITSO but I thought the whole point of it
was that any suitable technically compliant card could hold / recognise
the ITSO specification and associated "product profiles" for each TOC

AIUI (I could be out of date, I've been out of EPOS for a long while)
there isn't currently any such concept as "cash on a card". Banks might
one day be able to issue cards that can hold cash, backed by their legally
mandated reserves in the same way as other accounts. But at present LUL
are just letting you pre-pay for their service with a fancy chip card to
record your pre-payment, which doesn't bring it within the legal reach
of either cash or credit regulations.

You could have "credit on a card", with the credit backed by the
card issuer. The product would just hold the amount of your current
credit with the particular issuer(s). One day all credit cards might
work that way, rather than the antiquated chip-and-pin bodge the UK has
only just got round to rolling out. I *think* I'm right in saying that
this is what Oyster would become if we went the Octopus route of paying
for small goods with your Oyster. I presume LUL would continue to only
give you credit against an equivalent deposit ! But it still wouldn't
be cash on the card, unless maybe LUL became a bank.

Cards with bank-backed stored value (essentially cash-on-a-card) have been
trialled a couple of times in small areas in the UK, but both fizzled
out about 10 years ago in a blaze of non-publicity. I never found out
the results of the trials and the reasons they weren't taken any further,
despite an interest in the subject.

Oh sure - I went to see the first trial that ran in Swindon. IIRC it was
called Mondex (had to drag that from the memory bank) but that was
contact based and was dreadfully slow on buses and at the then BR
station ticket office. Real cash (notes and coins) may bring all sorts
of expense but it is hugely convenient and easy for people to use. A
card based alternative has to have other benefits for people to consider
it worthwhile having a card. The public transport market in a high use
location (like London) has the potential to generate the card holding
base from which other applications can grow in popularity. Again HK
shows this the best.

ITSO (again AIUI, though I've not read in depth) is more about a
defined way to hold several products (so you could have one card
holding a couple of season tickets and some stored PAYG travel credits
and maybe your library card plus some credit value from your favourite
coffee shop) rather than either a way to hold cash or a way to use
those products.

I know you've actually worked on this stuff Paul, so please correct me
if wrong !

A long time ago and I don't pretend to be up to date. I fully understand
your point about whether it is "cash on the card" or not - you do get
into very hot water quite quickly with the financial regulators on this
point. We (the LT project team) certainly fell across it years and years
ago when we first looked at this. Octopus (Creative Star) found the
same in HK but they went the next step and became licensed deposit
holders (or whatever the HK term is).

Having read the two responses to my post I think I can see some not
insignificant issues emerging. Firstly the point about extending PAYG to
the Zonal Fare structure within the London zones. I do fully understand
the complications relating to routing and fares but this will become
more complex from 11 Nov this year when Overground starts and accepts
PAYG from Day One. Nonetheless there are significant challenges if PAYG
is to be rolled out within the zones on the same basis as TfL employ it
for DLR and LUL.

Still not 100% certain about how ITSO cards will work. I know Captain
Deltic did a short article in MR a number of months back and there were
certainly issues with the SWT product "profiles". If you wish to hold
something like a season ticket on a smartcard then that's fine and
fairly easy to deal with whether zonal or line of route. It is either
valid in certain places at certain times / dates or it is not. In
addition you've typically paid for it up front and the product is on the
card.

What is more intriguing is whether ITSO cards will allow people to
travel in the same manner as PAYG does - record entry and exit and fare
is deducted from your "credit" balance on the card. I assume it must
allow this sort of facility or else why bother. If not then I see little
gain because people will still have to queue to purchase a "ticket" that
will be held on the card for validation purposes. What the hell happens
on cross London zonal boundary (i.e. beyond Zone 6) trips I dread to
think. Perhaps the good Captain has a further article planned to get us
all up to date?
--
Paul C

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 22:26:38 on Fri, 3 Aug
2007, tim..... remarked:
They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be
compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

We need to be clear what is meant by "at a TOC" here.

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as you
leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which prepay
reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.

It must depend on the product you have pre-bought? If you have an Oyster
like PAYG card valid on NR, surely the payment will be made via Rail
Settlement Plan in the normal manner - it would presumablly be allocated to
the TOCs on the route in exactly the same way as now? Paul Corfield will
probably confirm that there is some sort of mechanism exactly like that for
the joint routes within the London zonal area, otherwise c2c, one, and
Chiltern are losing out. Same for a season ticket or season travecard -
where any operator is normally permitted.

The difficulties come if you try to get your head around loading a TOC
specific Advance Purchase ticket - thats going to need to be loaded along
with info that defines operator, train times, date, break of journey
restrictions, etc etc. I think it'll still be on a piece of card. Other
products that seem a nightmare to fit on a card are things like 4 for 2
groupsaves for example...

Also - exactly what geographical functionality have SWT been asked to
provide by the DfT? Certainly XC have been required to accept SWT cards in
the overlapping area, but does that actually mean SWT will sell a smartcard
Bournemouth to say Leeds ticket, or only that XC will accept a smartcard
Bournemouth to e.g. Waterloo ticket as far as Basingstoke... quite a
difference really. But going back to the first para, even if the card is
badged 'SWT' I'm sure XC will get their fraction of the price.

Paul

W14_Fishbourne writes:

Secondly, trying to work out the correct fare for your PAYG journey is
difficult enough on London Underground, with a fairly simple route and
fares structure, never mind on National Rail with its mass of
different routes and fares. (If you want to know what I mean, take a
journey from Gunnersbury to Hanger Lane via Turnham Green, Ealing
Broadway, and North Acton. You won't have stepped outside zone 3 but
just see what fare you get charged.)

The solution to that is relatively simple. Make it like London Buses and
make people touch in when entering (and maybe leaving) a train rather
than (or as well as) at the barrier line at the stations. That way the
exact journey taken is recorded, you are charged the appropriate fare
and it is allocated to the TOC(s) which you actually used rather than on
a statistical 'divy up' basis. This would probably work best if rather
than the 'money' being stored on the card it worked more like a
credit/debit card with each journey debiting the user's account on a
central system.

Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days.

A similar idea was the subject of a SciFi book I read many years
ago. Unfortunately I cannot remember the author, but the idea was that
everyone wore a 'watch' which represented their identity. All
transactions were done using this 'watch'. Entering buildings like
theatres, using a taxi, train or bus etc automatically debited your
balance. If for any reason your balance went negative or your 'watch'
became detached from your wrist, you became a non-person.

On Aug 4, 12:26 pm, Graham Murray wrote:
W14_Fishbourne writes:
Secondly, trying to work out the correct fare for your PAYG journey is
difficult enough on London Underground, with a fairly simple route and
fares structure, never mind on National Rail with its mass of
different routes and fares. (If you want to know what I mean, take a
journey from Gunnersbury to Hanger Lane via Turnham Green, Ealing
Broadway, and North Acton. You won't have stepped outside zone 3 but
just see what fare you get charged.)

The solution to that is relatively simple. Make it like London Buses and
make people touch in when entering (and maybe leaving) a train rather
than (or as well as) at the barrier line at the stations. That way the
exact journey taken is recorded, you are charged the appropriate fare
and it is allocated to the TOC(s) which you actually used rather than on
a statistical 'divy up' basis. This would probably work best if rather
than the 'money' being stored on the card it worked more like a
credit/debit card with each journey debiting the user's account on a
central system.

It's difficult enough getting people to touch-in and touch-out
properly at the ends of their journeys when there's no gateline (or to
do so when the gatelines left open). You clearly don't travel by train
in the rush hour - I can just imagine what will happen to station
dwell times if people have to queue up to touch-in with their
smartcards as they board a train!