In message , at 10:52:59 on
Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Paul Scott remarked:

They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be
compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

We need to be clear what is meant by "at a TOC" here.

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as you
leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which prepay
reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.

It must depend on the product you have pre-bought?

Assume all I have is a card with some cash on it (in effect lent by me
to the operator while un-used) or a combination of some cash and a
direct debit mandate to charge me whatever I use in excess of that cash.

If you have an Oyster like PAYG card valid on NR, surely the payment
will be made via Rail Settlement Plan in the normal manner

I think this is missing the point. That's about what'll happen when the
fare eventually reaches the settlement system.

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:21:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 10:52:59 on
Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Paul Scott remarked:

They say all the ATOC cards [or is it phones] are going to be
compatible
with each other, but I wouldn't take bets on it.

Being technically compatible and using the same stored
value may not be the same thing :-(

That's a whole new can of worms, but are you suggesting one smartcard
could have the stored value from dozens of different TOCs upon it (and

No, just that one TOCs card would be useless at a different TOC
even though they were technically compatable, unless the issue of
funds sharing is resolved.

We need to be clear what is meant by "at a TOC" here.

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as you
leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which prepay
reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.

It must depend on the product you have pre-bought?

Assume all I have is a card with some cash on it (in effect lent by me
to the operator while un-used) or a combination of some cash and a
direct debit mandate to charge me whatever I use in excess of that cash.

If you have an Oyster like PAYG card valid on NR, surely the payment
will be made via Rail Settlement Plan in the normal manner

I think this is missing the point. That's about what'll happen when the
fare eventually reaches the settlement system.

No it is not missing the point. Any settlement of value from a card
would almost certainly have to go via RSP so far as a NR smartcard is
concerned. I cannot see them surrendering control over part of the
retailing and settlement system.

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

It should not make any difference. An ITSO compatible card will be
recognised by all ITSO devices regardless of where that card was
originally used or where it is being used. If the card held a ticket
that was valid at the location you were at then it would be accepted as
being valid. If the card held credit that either had to be deducted or
the card had to register an entry or exit transaction then it would
happen provided the validation equipment was working.

This is no different to the magnetic ticket being of a standard size,
having a common print field design for each ticket type, having a common
magnetic stripe design and being capable of being read and written to /
printed on by gates, ticket machines and hand held devices that are
designed to be compatible with the supporting ticket specifications.
Just think of the ITSO card being analogous to the credit card sized NR
magnetic ticket.

The card will hold products or value. Other devices read and interpret
and write back to the cards in accordance with the commercial rules for
those products. Where they were issued from or whose "value" they hold
is irrelevant.

To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.
--
Paul C

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:59:06 on Fri, 3
Aug 2007, Arthur Figgis remarked:
They are converting the Amsterdam public transport to some sort of
Oyster-like system quite soon now. So less moaning about the problems
of finding a ticket machine there that'll take credit cards, but
it's one more bit of dedicated plastic to carry everywhere

Though presumably that is the card that will - in theory - one day -
work on almost all public transport in the Netherlands (not sure about
NS)?

It sounds like a sensible ambition. I'm assuming phase-1 will work
between Schiphol and Centraal, but I will need to check this out next
time I'm there.

I think the first stage was trials on the Rotterdam - Hook of Holland
rail line. As with Betuwe Route, HSL Zuid, the new high speed trains,
they seem to be having delays and technical problems which Britain would
be proud of. :-)

OV Chipkaart (sp?) will replace those famous Dutch bits of paper which
I've completely forgotten the name of. Umm...

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:21:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.

In part of my earlier post that Roland snipped I wondered how Oyster PAYG
worked its way back to the mainline TOCs that are using it already, Paul, is
this done on a statistical basis - Chiltern services for example?

Paul S

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:21:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.

In part of my earlier post that Roland snipped I wondered how Oyster PAYG
worked its way back to the mainline TOCs that are using it already, Paul,
is this done on a statistical basis - Chiltern services for example?

presumably it's done on the same basis that the revenue
from paper tickets is shared - by passenger counting
surveys.

tim

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:35:18 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

Still not 100% certain about how ITSO cards will work. I know Captain
Deltic did a short article in MR a number of months back and there were
certainly issues with the SWT product "profiles". If you wish to hold
something like a season ticket on a smartcard then that's fine and
fairly easy to deal with whether zonal or line of route. It is either
valid in certain places at certain times / dates or it is not. In
addition you've typically paid for it up front and the product is on the
card.

What is more intriguing is whether ITSO cards will allow people to
travel in the same manner as PAYG does - record entry and exit and fare
is deducted from your "credit" balance on the card. I assume it must
allow this sort of facility or else why bother. If not then I see little
gain because people will still have to queue to purchase a "ticket" that
will be held on the card for validation purposes.

Indeed, and this is the key question. And I don't see how it could
work. The system is practical on LU, because it's a relatively small
network (so has a relatively low edge-to-edge fare) and is almost
fully barriered, so anyone failing to touch out can be charged the
maximum fare, and a deposit to the tune of the difference between
minimum and maximum fares can be demanded beforehand. But what would
happen on SWT if a passenger does not touch out - charge the London to
Weymouth or Exeter fare? (Or with eventual integration across all
TOCs, the Penzance to Wick fare?) And do I need to place a similarly
large deposit to get the card, to cover any journey I might make with
it?

The only practical use that I can think of that's not totally
pointless is that the card would store a "template" for a ticket that
the user buys often.

For example, suppose I often buy CDRs from Southampton to Bournemouth.
I would obtain a smartcard that contains a "template" for a
Southampton to Bournemouth CDR, as well as a cash balance. Each time I
touch in at the barriers at Southampton, it automatically "purchases"
a CDR to Bournemouth using the balance on the card, the ticket being
stored on the card. This would be accepted by on-train grippers with
hand-held card scanners. It would also let be out of the barriers at
Bournemouth, and through the barriers at Bournemouth and Southampton
on the return journey - but I would not be *required* to make any of
these touches in order for the correct fare to be charged.

If I also often bought SDRs from Southampton to London, I would need
to carry a separate smartcard containing that template (with a
separate balance?).

On Aug 4, 1:21 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

Look at it this way, iIf you buy a mag card Travelcard from SWT, will
it be refused for travel on South Eastern services just because it's
in an SWT plastic wallet?

Think of an ITSO card in the same way - it's simply an electronic
wallet in which you keep your tickets. The TOCs couldn't care whose
name is on the wallet you keep the ticket in, it's the ticket that
matters.

In message , at 13:57:03 on
Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Paul Corfield remarked:

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as you
leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which prepay
reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.

It must depend on the product you have pre-bought?

Assume all I have is a card with some cash on it (in effect lent by me
to the operator while un-used) or a combination of some cash and a
direct debit mandate to charge me whatever I use in excess of that cash.

If you have an Oyster like PAYG card valid on NR, surely the payment
will be made via Rail Settlement Plan in the normal manner

I think this is missing the point. That's about what'll happen when the
fare eventually reaches the settlement system.

No it is not missing the point. Any settlement of value from a card
would almost certainly have to go via RSP so far as a NR smartcard is
concerned. I cannot see them surrendering control over part of the
retailing and settlement system.

I'm not disputing that the fare will probably go through the current
settlement channel [as a matter of interest, do TOC specific fares do
that as well, and come back to the TOC 100% intact?]. It's more about
will every card have an "account" with every ToC's barriers.

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

It should not make any difference. An ITSO compatible card will be
recognised by all ITSO devices regardless of where that card was
originally used or where it is being used.

Unless you can convince me otherwise, ITSO is just a technical
specification. It's doesn't address the commercial relationships between
operators. For example, ITSO cards are used by Cheshire buses. But will
a Cheshire bus pass also be able to buy me a SWT ticket from Basingstoke
to Southampton? Not unless there is a commercial and financial tie-up.

I'm wondering if there will even be such a connection between different
ToC cards. (It's obvious there should be, but is that currently in the
plan?)

If the card held a ticket that was valid at the location you were at
then it would be accepted as being valid.

That assumes I have pre-bought a specific ticket, which removes the
majority of the flexibility. In other words I'm not just "touching in",
at a barrier, but previously have queue up to "touch in" at a machine
and tell it where I want to go to, so it can pre-load the ticket.

If the card held credit that either had to be deducted or
the card had to register an entry or exit transaction then it would
happen provided the validation equipment was working.

Only if the equipment where I enter and leave the network has a
commercial relationship with the card issuer. (Which raises issues if my
journey involves a National Rail/Tube transfer, perhaps.)

This is no different to the magnetic ticket being of a standard size,
having a common print field design for each ticket type, having a common
magnetic stripe design and being capable of being read and written to /
printed on by gates, ticket machines and hand held devices that are
designed to be compatible with the supporting ticket specifications.
Just think of the ITSO card being analogous to the credit card sized NR
magnetic ticket.

That's the physical compatibility, which is only part of the problem.

The card will hold products or value. Other devices read and interpret
and write back to the cards in accordance with the commercial rules for
those products. Where they were issued from or whose "value" they hold
is irrelevant.

As long as the place I'm using it has that commercial relationship,
which I'm beginning to think means that it has to be installed over the
whole network at once. Otherwise what happens if I finish my journey
somewhere that doesn't support my card.

To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.

Getting Oyster accepted on National Rail in the general London area will
certainly help prove the system.
--
Roland Perry

In message .com, at
07:41:44 on Sat, 4 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
On Aug 4, 1:21 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

Look at it this way, iIf you buy a mag card Travelcard from SWT, will
it be refused for travel on South Eastern services just because it's
in an SWT plastic wallet?

I think "Travelcard" implies the London area, which is likely to be much
more inter-operable just because of the Oyster project. And a Travelcard
isn't PAYG, so is a much simpler problem.

Think of an ITSO card in the same way - it's simply an electronic
wallet in which you keep your tickets. The TOCs couldn't care whose
name is on the wallet you keep the ticket in, it's the ticket that
matters.

Sounds great; so it's "Bank of ATOC" and not "Bank of ToC" that my money
gets debited from by whatever ToC I finish my journey at and who does
the sums about how much it should have cost to get there from where I
started. Presumably grippers on the train will do stuff like alerting
the card as one that's been used on a "savers banned" train, so I'm
charged a full open fare rather than a saver when I wave out?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 15:01:58 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:21:23 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:


To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.

In part of my earlier post that Roland snipped I wondered how Oyster PAYG
worked its way back to the mainline TOCs that are using it already, Paul, is
this done on a statistical basis - Chiltern services for example?

Not 100% sure to be honest. The underlying position will still be
survey based but a proportion of the data can be reasonably stated as
being on one service rather than another - entry at Marylebone and exit
at Amersham not long after a Chiltern scheduled arrival. Same would
apply for entry at Upminster and exit at Fenchurch St. Clearly not 100%
accurate but elements of the data will give more information for through
tickets than magnetics ever did.

Travel from say Dagenham Dock to F St would be unequivocally C2C money
but I do not know whether the introduction of PAYG for such trips will
impact upon the broad share of revenue over the interavailable part of
the network. I suspect this may be something where the parties "suck it
and see" as take up of PAYG for such trips will be a key factor in
deciding how the revenue share might be changing.

Obviously the lack of validation in South London and parts of North
London TOC networks means that Oyster validation for Travelcards is also
limited. However I would not be surprised if the Oyster data was being
analysed quite closely for LU and DLR to see what extra it might be
saying about journey volumes, patterns and whether the TfL slice of the
revenue "cake" is in the right ballpark when compared to the survey
basis.

A move towards majority use of Oyster data would be a big change to the
agreements and would be subject to intense negotiation from all of the
parties to the agreement - no one would wish to "lose" from a move in
the calculation as to respective shares.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!