MIG typed


People will also miss the trains they are trying to change to while
stuck in the congestion at Camden. If I was paying for more zones,
I'd rather wait a couple of minutes at Colindale (say) for a through
train, get in a seat and stay in it to Bank (say).

Having to fight my way through crowds at Camden, while missing the
train I'm trying to change to, and then having to spend the rest of
the journey standing (if I can get on) would dramatically reduce the
quality of my journey.

I suspect the thought of having to battle through Camden, then standing
for the remainder of the journey would deter a substantial number from
making the journey by Tube at all. I would not be surprised if
City-working commuters then moved east...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:34:03 -0700, MIG wrote:

People will also miss the trains they are trying to change to while
stuck in the congestion at Camden. If I was paying for more zones,
I'd rather wait a couple of minutes at Colindale (say) for a through
train, get in a seat and stay in it to Bank (say).

Having to fight my way through crowds at Camden,

You don't have to fight anything, you just have to follow the crowd.

while missing the train I'm trying to change to,

If it takes x seconds to change platforms at Camden, then the first
train that departs after x seconds is up is the one you'll get. If
you're trying to get an earlier one, maybe you shouldn't have
bothered. This may seem unjust to you, but it's how it works at every
single interchange station on the network already. (And at your
starting station, where you get the first train to depart at least y
seconds after you leave the house, where y is the time to reach the
platform, etc.)

And it won't delay you any more than the current delays at Camden Town
when there's a train from High Barnet towards Bank in the way of
yours.

and then having to spend the rest of
the journey standing (if I can get on)

Guess what? If the service is split and the train frequency is
increased, there will be *more* seats available overall. But if TfL
don't consider your personal chances of getting a seat for your entire
journey as more important than everyone else's, that makes them
uncaring?

(Yes, I know your journey is only hypothetical.)

would dramatically reduce the quality of my journey.

(But a TfL that can introduce bendy buses obviously isn't concerned
about such considerations.)

How do you know they aren't concerned? Unlike you, they also have to
take into consideration the people who will be left behind standing on
crowded platforms if the service isn't split and the train frequency
isn't increased, and balance everyone's needs.

More trains and less delays will ease congestion, making this worth
the effort, I think. And there is quite a good chance you will get a
seat when changing at Camden Town, since a lot of other people will be
getting off and changing for the other line, too.
Furthermore, at the stations north of Camden Town that I go to
sometimes, I never really see people waiting for a train; everyone
seems to get on whatever train shows up. It is faster, and you never
know where a Northern Line train might end up anyway.

I think we can all agree that something needs to be done at Camden
Town, even if the current service pattern is upheld. I'd rather not
see a tower office block on top of the station either, but if it's in
the style of the rest of Camden Town, and has the same type of shops
etc., I really don't mind.

Bob wrote:
Tube station revamp on the cards if route is split in two

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/08230...082307_17.html

quote
Congestion fears as transport chiefs investigate changes to ageing
Northern Line

CAMDEN Town Tube station is being eyed up for redevelopment again - as
Transport for London finalise plans to split the Northern Line into
two separate routes.
Planners believe creating two distinct services would allow more
trains to run every hour.
The strategy follows a series of private meetings at TfL over the
summer which has seen the plans discussed at the highest level.
Its success, however, hinges on Camden Town underground station - the
congested stop where the two parts of the Northern Line overlap -
being redeveloped.
A draft document reveals how one branch would run from Edgware to
Kennington, while another would go from High Barnet through to
Morden.
TfL believe this would allow them to increase capacity from around 20
trains per hour to as many as 30.
John Prescott, the former deputy prime minister, threw out plans to
redevelop Camden Town station in 2005.
Transport chiefs had wanted to seize land surrounding the station to
build a seven-storey tower of shops and flats. Market traders who
would have lost their stalls, the neighbouring Electric Ballroom
nightclub, residents and Camden Council opposed the plan.
A TfL spokesman said: "We would need to refurbish the station to make
it (split the Northern Line) possible, and that would cost a lot of
money. This is a long-term aspiration. We think this would be a good
thing for the Northern Line."
He added that the current station lay-out could not cope with the
extra traffic and that TfL were currently looking into how feasible
the plans were.
The spokesman added: "The Northern Line is one of the most challenging
on the network in terms of its age, how much it is used and its
design."
Critics say splitting the line is unworkable and will lead to
dangerous numbers of people changing at Camden Town.
Conservative Greater London Authority member for Camden and Barnet
Brian Coleman said: "This will lead to trouble at Camden Town. It will
take at least five to 10 years to redevelop the station and I have
heard TfL want to do this as soon as possible. It will make Camden
Town unbearably busy, and people do not want to be forced into
changing at Camden Town."
He added: "It is a cover for reducing the service. The service was run
like this in the past and they changed it to increase trains. Why
would it work the other way round?"
Andrew Bosi, of transport pressure group Friends of Capital Transport,
said the jury was out on whether it would improve the service.
He said: "The sticking point is congestion. When they wanted to
increase the size of the Tube station there before they were too
greedy - they wanted to take half of Camden with them.
"However, if they do plan to have more people changing there, they
will have to work out a way of making sure the station can cope."


Here's a radical idea, why don't they just try it?

Just pick a date and do it from them for a while, see how it goes and if
it's the predicted nightmare then revert everything back.

Although didn't they run it like this after the Camden crash a few years
ago? Were the crowds that bad then?

On Aug 25, 6:44 am, (Mark Brader) wrote:
It doesn't actually work like that. People prefer through trains,
much as some transit planners would prefer otherwise.

But that argument doesn't really work if you put it the other way
round. Consider if TfL said they were willing to reduce the Victoria
and Piccadilly Line service frequencies by 20% if it meant everyone
currently changing at Finsbury Park could have a direct train. They'd
be laughed at.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Aug 25, 12:08 pm, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:34:03 -0700, MIG wrote:
People will also miss the trains they are trying to change to while
stuck in the congestion at Camden. If I was paying for more zones,
I'd rather wait a couple of minutes at Colindale (say) for a through
train, get in a seat and stay in it to Bank (say).

Having to fight my way through crowds at Camden,

You don't have to fight anything, you just have to follow the crowd.

while missing the train I'm trying to change to,

If it takes x seconds to change platforms at Camden, then the first
train that departs after x seconds is up is the one you'll get. If
you're trying to get an earlier one, maybe you shouldn't have
bothered. This may seem unjust to you, but it's how it works at every
single interchange station on the network already. (And at your
starting station, where you get the first train to depart at least y
seconds after you leave the house, where y is the time to reach the
platform, etc.)

And it won't delay you any more than the current delays at Camden Town
when there's a train from High Barnet towards Bank in the way of
yours.

and then having to spend the rest of
the journey standing (if I can get on)

Guess what? If the service is split and the train frequency is
increased, there will be *more* seats available overall. But if TfL
don't consider your personal chances of getting a seat for your entire
journey as more important than everyone else's, that makes them
uncaring?

(Yes, I know your journey is only hypothetical.)

would dramatically reduce the quality of my journey.

(But a TfL that can introduce bendy buses obviously isn't concerned
about such considerations.)

How do you know they aren't concerned? Unlike you, they also have to
take into consideration the people who will be left behind standing on
crowded platforms if the service isn't split and the train frequency
isn't increased, and balance everyone's needs.



My concern is that performance is measured by the movement of TfL and
the relevant providers' vehicles, rather than by the arrival of
passengers at their destinations in a reasonably comfortable state.

It's a case of measuring what can be measured, rather than what's
important. That's perfectly understandable, but the changes in recent
years are about more than just measuring. Positive steps have been
taken to get the vehicles through unhindered by passengers, and while
this improves "performance", based on what can be measured, it is not
improving the journey experience (or timely arrival at destination) of
the passengers.

I am talking about measures like LU drivers risking being disciplined
if they don't shut the doors before people have a chance to get on,
and buses not stopping at compulsory stops.

I suspect that the plans for the Northern Line are similarly about
getting vehicles through unhindered by passengers, and being able to
claim increased throughput, regardless of the journey experience of
the passengers.

On Aug 25, 10:15 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 25, 6:44 am, (Mark Brader) wrote:

It doesn't actually work like that. People prefer through trains,
much as some transit planners would prefer otherwise.

But that argument doesn't really work if you put it the other way
round. Consider if TfL said they were willing to reduce the Victoria
and Piccadilly Line service frequencies by 20% if it meant everyone
currently changing at Finsbury Park could have a direct train. They'd
be laughed at.



Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by
25%?

On Aug 25, 5:25 pm, Stuart wrote:
Bob wrote:
Tube station revamp on the cards if route is split in two

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/08230...082307_17.html

quote
Congestion fears as transport chiefs investigate changes to ageing
Northern Line

CAMDEN Town Tube station is being eyed up for redevelopment again - as
Transport for London finalise plans to split the Northern Line into
two separate routes.
Planners believe creating two distinct services would allow more
trains to run every hour.
The strategy follows a series of private meetings at TfL over the
summer which has seen the plans discussed at the highest level.
Its success, however, hinges on Camden Town underground station - the
congested stop where the two parts of the Northern Line overlap -
being redeveloped.
A draft document reveals how one branch would run from Edgware to
Kennington, while another would go from High Barnet through to
Morden.
TfL believe this would allow them to increase capacity from around 20
trains per hour to as many as 30.
John Prescott, the former deputy prime minister, threw out plans to
redevelop Camden Town station in 2005.
Transport chiefs had wanted to seize land surrounding the station to
build a seven-storey tower of shops and flats. Market traders who
would have lost their stalls, the neighbouring Electric Ballroom
nightclub, residents and Camden Council opposed the plan.
A TfL spokesman said: "We would need to refurbish the station to make
it (split the Northern Line) possible, and that would cost a lot of
money. This is a long-term aspiration. We think this would be a good
thing for the Northern Line."
He added that the current station lay-out could not cope with the
extra traffic and that TfL were currently looking into how feasible
the plans were.
The spokesman added: "The Northern Line is one of the most challenging
on the network in terms of its age, how much it is used and its
design."
Critics say splitting the line is unworkable and will lead to
dangerous numbers of people changing at Camden Town.
Conservative Greater London Authority member for Camden and Barnet
Brian Coleman said: "This will lead to trouble at Camden Town. It will
take at least five to 10 years to redevelop the station and I have
heard TfL want to do this as soon as possible. It will make Camden
Town unbearably busy, and people do not want to be forced into
changing at Camden Town."
He added: "It is a cover for reducing the service. The service was run
like this in the past and they changed it to increase trains. Why
would it work the other way round?"
Andrew Bosi, of transport pressure group Friends of Capital Transport,
said the jury was out on whether it would improve the service.
He said: "The sticking point is congestion. When they wanted to
increase the size of the Tube station there before they were too
greedy - they wanted to take half of Camden with them.
"However, if they do plan to have more people changing there, they
will have to work out a way of making sure the station can cope."

Here's a radical idea, why don't they just try it?

Just pick a date and do it from them for a while, see how it goes and if
it's the predicted nightmare then revert everything back.

Although didn't they run it like this after the Camden crash a few years
ago? Were the crowds that bad then?- Hide quoted text -

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/twa/ir/lon...ns5651?page=18

http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave..._incident.html

From 19th October to 30th October 2003 Camden Town was run as two
separate lines - see District Dave's report.

I also annex the DfT report on the redevelopment above ground

On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote:
Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by
25%?

That's what they say:

"Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph
on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through
central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain
crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to
different destinations via different branches. It is possible to
achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing
infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome.

"A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on
the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West
End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London
branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and
crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure
being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main
requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station
capacity improvements at Camden Town."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa.../T2025-new.pdf

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Aug 26, 8:15 am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 26, 12:58 am, MIG wrote:

Are the proposals really going to increase Northern Line frequency by
25%?

That's what they say:

"Following the PPP Northern line upgrade, the line will operate 30tph
on the southern Morden to Kennington section, but the branches through
central London will be operating at only 22-25tph and will remain
crowded. The limit on capacity is the need to inter-work services to
different destinations via different branches. It is possible to
achieve higher frequencies and capacity using the existing
infrastructure if junction capacity limitations can be overcome.

"A segregation of services would deliver simpler service patterns on
the line. This will allow more trains to be run through both the West
End and City branches - enabling 30tph services on the central London
branches. This will provide roughly 25 per cent extra capacity and
crowding relief on these busy sections. With the core infrastructure
being capable of supporting these service patterns, the main
requirements are some additional trains (and stabling) and station
capacity improvements at Camden Town."



Well, it's all a bit smoke and mirrors and hypothetical. The
hypothetical increase in frequency will be down to the upgrade, not to
the service pattern changes, but they are suggesting that they won't
be able to take full advantage of the upgrade without the changes to
the service pattern.

Blaming the service pattern will be handy when the upgrade can't
deliver enough to justify its cost ... but then I'm cynical.