On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:20:54 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Also - "Watford Junction (main line)"? Is there another Watford Junction?

Probably the DC lines, which in many systems count as a different
station.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:20:54 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:

Probably - from CO

Shortest route from (London) Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly

Distance: 186 miles 76 chains
From (London) Victoria to Battersea Park, to Clapham Junction, to West
Brompton, to Kensington Olympia, to Willesden Junction, to Harrow &
Wealdstone, to Bushey, to Watford Junction (main line),

Also - "Watford Junction (main line)"? Is there another Watford Junction?

It means Watford Junction (via main line), as opposed to via Watford
High Street.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:34:56 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

You can get from London Victoria to Watford Junction by National Rail,
by getting a train from Victoria out to Clapham Junction and changing
onto the Southern service via the WLL to Watford Junction. No idea if
there'd be a single through ticket that could be sold for this journey
though!

There are indeed tickets (even seasons) available from Watford
Junction to Victoria, and Waterloo, route Clapham Junction.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Peter Smyth wrote:


"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, John B wrote:

On 14 Sep, 07:52, James Farrar wrote:
Just in case anyone is interested, I have created a Google Group which
contains files that show what was printed on all of the Solari flaps
on the main departure board at London Victoria (Central).

Please
visithttp://groups.google.com/group/london-victoria-central-solari-flaps

Ah, I'm glad that I wasn't hallucinating when I saw "Manchester" as it
flipped over one time... though I bopggle to think what route (and
purpose!) that would serve...

Connection with boat train mebbe? In the style of the former Manchester
to Waterloo E* connection services...

How on earth did it get there? WLL?

Actually it took a rather more scenic route via Wales!

....

You're joking, right? If not, details please!

I mean, Windsor lines - Reading - Oxford - Coventry - Brum - Crewe -
Manchester, i could understand. But Wales?

tom

--
non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, ..

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 14 Sep, 15:20, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, John B wrote:
On 14 Sep, 10:45, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, John B wrote:

Ah, I'm glad that I wasn't hallucinating when I saw "Manchester" as it
flipped over one time... though I bopggle to think what route (and
purpose!) that would serve...

Connection with boat train mebbe? In the style of the former Manchester
to Waterloo E* connection services...

How on earth did it get there? WLL?

Probably - from CO

Shortest route from (London) Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly

Distance: 186 miles 76 chains
From (London) Victoria to Battersea Park, to Clapham Junction, to West
Brompton, to Kensington Olympia, to Willesden Junction, to Harrow &
Wealdstone, to Bushey, to Watford Junction (main line),

I infer from CORE's opinion that this is no longer used as a passenger
route. Does anyone know different? Watford to Victoria/Waterloo trains
might be quite useful ...

You can get from London Victoria to Watford Junction by National Rail,
by getting a train from Victoria out to Clapham Junction and changing
onto the Southern service via the WLL to Watford Junction. No idea if
there'd be a single through ticket that could be sold for this journey
though! Anyway anyone wanting to do this to avoid the tube (say for
reasons of claustrophobia) could go to Olympia or West Brompton on the
District line (sub-surface so not a tube line) and catch the Southern
service up the WLL from there. Though by far the easiest way from
Victoria remains going up to Euston by tube and getting a train from
there!

True. I was thinking that a Watford - Victoria/Waterloo service would be
useful for people coming from that side of London, or the WCML, to places
not easily reached from Euston, but it doesn't really help: from Victoria,
you can get to places on the Victoria, Circle and District lines, and
places served by NR trains from Victoria, but Euston already reaches the
Victoria and Circle lines, and you can take a Watford - CJ train and
change at Clapham Junction for the NR trains and Brompton Park for the
District; at Waterloo, it's the Northern, Bakerloo, Jubilee and NR trains,
and again, the Northern goes through Euston, the Bakerloo from the
direction of Watford, the Jubilee via the Bakerloo at Baker Street, and
the trains can be caught at CJ.

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?

tom

--
non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, ..

In message , Tom
Anderson writes

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court.

The trouble is that few passenger services used that part of the WLL by
the 1930s, when the hall was built. The main service from Willesdon
Junction (the last remnant of the old "outer circle") terminated at
Earls Court, so would have bypassed a station built under the exhibition
hall. In any case, even that service terminated in 1940.

--
Paul Terry

On 15 Sep, 15:20, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Sep, 15:20, Tom Anderson wrote:

(big snip)

I infer from CORE's opinion that this is no longer used as a passenger
route. Does anyone know different? Watford to Victoria/Waterloo trains
might be quite useful ...

You can get from London Victoria to Watford Junction by National Rail,
by getting a train from Victoria out to Clapham Junction and changing
onto the Southern service via the WLL to Watford Junction. No idea if
there'd be a single through ticket that could be sold for this journey
though! Anyway anyone wanting to do this to avoid the tube (say for
reasons of claustrophobia) could go to Olympia or West Brompton on the
District line (sub-surface so not a tube line) and catch the Southern
service up the WLL from there. Though by far the easiest way from
Victoria remains going up to Euston by tube and getting a train from
there!

True. I was thinking that a Watford - Victoria/Waterloo service would be
useful for people coming from that side of London, or the WCML, to places
not easily reached from Euston, but it doesn't really help: from Victoria,
you can get to places on the Victoria, Circle and District lines, and
places served by NR trains from Victoria, but Euston already reaches the
Victoria and Circle lines, and you can take a Watford - CJ train and
change at Clapham Junction for the NR trains and Brompton Park for the
District; at Waterloo, it's the Northern, Bakerloo, Jubilee and NR trains,
and again, the Northern goes through Euston, the Bakerloo from the
direction of Watford, the Jubilee via the Bakerloo at Baker Street, and
the trains can be caught at CJ.

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?

tom


This is a hoary old subject I think but nonetheless, the real
potential benefit of the WLL for avoiding central London would be for
journeys from places on the WCML to places on the south coast. This
wouldn't have to be by through train but instead via a change at say
Watford Junction, Rugby or Milton Keynes Central onto a train via the
WLL to the south.

I'm far from being an expert on the WCML service pattern but I
understand that Virgin Trains WCML services have significantly cut
down the number of trains that now stop at these stations. Southern's
WLL service that used to reach Rugby (at least in Connex days) has
meanwhile been cut back to Watford Junction.

Then of course there's the massive problem of paving trains. I'm
really ignorant of this on the WCML, apart from knowing that Virgin
don't want anyone getting in the way of their trains on the fast
lines. Down south the WLL services come in to Clapham Junction on
either side of the station. Those that come in on the south-east side
then have to join the slow lines past Wandsworth Common - getting them
on to the fast lines involves crossing some or all lines on the flat,
so AIUI the Southern WLL trains to Brighton stay on the slow lines
(going slowly because they're sharing it with the stoppers) at least
as far as East Croydon if not beyond.

A train could also come into Clapham Junction on the north-west side
and then join the Windsor lines out in the direction of Wandsworth
Town. The fast and slow lines have been swapped round there lately and
I just can't remember how it works now (whether they're now paired by
direction or by fast/slow) but I guess again you'd encounter problems
of flat crossings. In addition on this side of Clapham Junction
(unlike p16/17 on the south-east side) you don't have the benefit of a
couple of largely vacant platforms in which you can stick your train
until it's your slot (though they are needed for the occasional
passing freight trains).

The last point of course speaks of the bigger problem of meshing two
separate 'networks' - that north of, and that south of the WLL - with
all the attendant problems that occur if a train is late or even
early. And of course the WLL is very busy with freight and hosts an
increasingly popular local passenger service - half-hourly at present
but the plan is for a more frequent service, possibly with some trains
running through beyond Willesden Junction along the North London Line.

All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

The West London Line Group follows developments on both WLL passenger
services (i.e. Southern and Silverlink Metro) - in particular their
latest August newsletter contains details of these possible changes:
http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...

This is a hoary old subject I think but nonetheless, the real
potential benefit of the WLL for avoiding central London would be for
journeys from places on the WCML to places on the south coast. This
wouldn't have to be by through train but instead via a change at say
Watford Junction, Rugby or Milton Keynes Central onto a train via the
WLL to the south.


The last point of course speaks of the bigger problem of meshing two
separate 'networks' - that north of, and that south of the WLL - with
all the attendant problems that occur if a train is late or even
early. And of course the WLL is very busy with freight and hosts an
increasingly popular local passenger service - half-hourly at present
but the plan is for a more frequent service, possibly with some trains
running through beyond Willesden Junction along the North London Line.


Instead of trying to run extra Southern trains in amongst the (current)
Silverlink, why not run a Southern service in the path of a Silverlink to
Northampton, and run a corresponding Silverlink down the WLL? Clearly the
timetables would have to match up, and no doubt pax would scream about not
running to Euston, but presumably a high proportion go on from the terminus
as is usual?


All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

The West London Line Group follows developments on both WLL passenger
services (i.e. Southern and Silverlink Metro) - in particular their
latest August newsletter contains details of these possible changes:
http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/


I think they're already out of date - isn't the latest idea in the South
London RUS to run to at least South Croydon?

Paul S

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...


It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?


Surely no need to be because West Brompton has both District line and main
line platforms, and is nearly as close to the Exhibition Centre as Earls
Court station?

Paul S

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Peter Smyth wrote:


"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, John B wrote:

On 14 Sep, 07:52, James Farrar wrote:
Just in case anyone is interested, I have created a Google Group
which
contains files that show what was printed on all of the Solari flaps
on the main departure board at London Victoria (Central).

Please
visithttp://groups.google.com/group/london-victoria-central-solari-flaps

Ah, I'm glad that I wasn't hallucinating when I saw "Manchester" as it
flipped over one time... though I bopggle to think what route (and
purpose!) that would serve...

Connection with boat train mebbe? In the style of the former Manchester
to Waterloo E* connection services...

How on earth did it get there? WLL?

Actually it took a rather more scenic route via Wales!

...

You're joking, right? If not, details please!

I mean, Windsor lines - Reading - Oxford - Coventry - Brum - Crewe -
Manchester, i could understand. But Wales?

Waterloo - Basingstoke - Salisbury - Bath - Bristol TM - Newport -
Hereford - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Man Picc.

I don't think it was ever intended as a serious way of getting from London
to Manchester although it was useful for various intermediate journeys along
the route.

Peter Smyth