On 18 Sep, 12:30, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007, Alex Ingram wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
alex_t wrote:
OK, I can say to myself that I'm not really a trainspotter. I mean, I
can appreciate nice wooden interior of the train, but the real goal of
my participation was to have a glimpse at the running tunnels*
[snip]

But still - it is scary to realize such things about myself!

It's okay, you're just a trackbasher. Them trainspotters are the weird
ones...

Having watched at least one person follow their folder of specially printed
LU track diagrams in preference to looking out of the window I may have to
disagree!

My instant reaction to that was, "ooh, i want those".

I mean, when you're in an unlit tunnel, how much does looking out of the
window tell you? A good map is like a pair of X-ray specs!

Or is there yet another designation for such folk?

I don't know a specific term, but they come under the map loony
(diagrammatic) classification. Mapspotters? Map nerds? You know, despite
being one, i don't know what it's called.


A cartoholic?

And if you're trying to rid yourself of your obsession perhaps you
need to attend sessions of Cartoholics Planonymous?

Would a good session down in the map room be referred to as getting
grid-faced? Probably not.

I have to say that, as someone who's a map lover too and has a pretty
solid sense of direction, I actually find it pretty liberating to
occasionally be thrown into a location with no map and no idea of
where the various compass points are. Not really something that
happens to me much in London town though.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 21 Sep, 01:43, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, MIG wrote:

I forgot to mention that they would also have been running from
Moorgate to Drayton Park in 1966, on what is now part of First Capital
Connect.

As seen on the strip map in this photo from the tour:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...86b55a4e_o.jpg

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park [...] This seems rather silly - having the line only go to
Drayton Park makes it almost completely useless! How long did that
situation last? Crumbs - according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would
only have been useful as a local service from Essex Road, Highbury &
Islington and Drayton Park into the City, and for people coming on the
Victoria line from Finsbury Park or Blackhorse Road (the other stations
have direct connections to Liverpool Street anyway). Luxury! What was
the frequency like? With that kind of demand, i would guess low enough
that people would be better off taking either a bus or the Northern
from King's Cross instead.

I've no idea how well loaded the Northern City line was when it was
evicted from Finsbury Park and just ran Drayton Park to Moorgate.
However I do remember reading a fairly detailed account of the
Moorgate crash in 1975 which happened in the morning rush-hour, and it
certainly gave the impression that the line was well used.

Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers
who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington
southwards when the Victoria line opened from Walthamstow Central to
High & I in 1968 - I'd suggest the number of pax reaching it via this
interchange may well have been substational.

You reckon? You think that people at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale
and Seven Sisters would have taken the Vic and changed at High & I for
Moorgate, rather than hopping on a direct train to Liverpool Street? And
that people at Finsbury Park would have done the same rather than taking a
direct train to Broad Street (which, AIUI, still ran at this point)?

Blackhorse Road is the only Vic station where changing to the GN&CR is the
best route, i think.

You can also get onto the GN&CR from the NLL at Highbury & Islington, but
again, i think that line ran to Broad Street at that time.

Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line
was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in,
say, 1965?

The link from the NLL to the GN - the Canonbury Curve - has existed
since 1875.
See http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html

It carried a number of suburban trains from the GN down to Broad Street
via the Canonbury Curve (between Finsbury Park and Canonbury) then down
via the closed line (though shortly to be mostly reopened as part of the
ELLX) from Dalston Junction to Broad Street.

Right, i didn't realise there was a GN service to Broad Street like that.

What i hadn't realised is that, as John Band pointed out, there *was* a
link from the GN to the GN&CR at that time, it just wasn't the one we have
now.

Some diesel trains continued on this route until the 1976 GN
electrification, from whence customers could of course use direct GN
trains that were routed through the Northern City tunnels to Moorgate (a
stone's throw from Broad Street).

Like i said!

Before the 1976 changes, there was nonetheless a single line link
between the LU depot at Drayton Park (adjacent to the station) and the
GN line at Finsbury Park, and this was used for LU rolling stock
transfers.

And the GN to Broad Street trains, right? Or am i confused again?

tom

--
If it ain't broke, open it up and see what makes it so bloody special.

On 21 Sep, 19:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 21 Sep, 01:43, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, MIG wrote:

I forgot to mention that they would also have been running from
Moorgate to Drayton Park in 1966, on what is now part of First Capital
Connect.

As seen on the strip map in this photo from the tour:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...86b55a4e_o.jpg

I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to
Drayton Park [...] This seems rather silly - having the line only go to
Drayton Park makes it almost completely useless! How long did that
situation last? Crumbs - according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would
only have been useful as a local service from Essex Road, Highbury &
Islington and Drayton Park into the City, and for people coming on the
Victoria line from Finsbury Park or Blackhorse Road (the other stations
have direct connections to Liverpool Street anyway). Luxury! What was
the frequency like? With that kind of demand, i would guess low enough
that people would be better off taking either a bus or the Northern
from King's Cross instead.

I've no idea how well loaded the Northern City line was when it was
evicted from Finsbury Park and just ran Drayton Park to Moorgate.
However I do remember reading a fairly detailed account of the
Moorgate crash in 1975 which happened in the morning rush-hour, and it
certainly gave the impression that the line was well used.

Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers
who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington
southwards when the Victoria line opened from Walthamstow Central to
High & I in 1968 - I'd suggest the number of pax reaching it via this
interchange may well have been substational.

You reckon? You think that people at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale
and Seven Sisters would have taken the Vic and changed at High & I for
Moorgate, rather than hopping on a direct train to Liverpool Street? And
that people at Finsbury Park would have done the same rather than taking a
direct train to Broad Street (which, AIUI, still ran at this point)?

Blackhorse Road is the only Vic station where changing to the GN&CR is the
best route, i think.

You're right, I'm an idiot! People coming from the north of the Vic
line would've been best taking the BR train to Liverpool Street. This
route would just have been a useful back-up if the alarm clock didn't
work. I guess a few lazy people might have used it to get to Old
Street without the walk. But that would be lazy.


You can also get onto the GN&CR from the NLL at Highbury & Islington, but
again, i think that line ran to Broad Street at that time.

Yes, again you be correct - the North London Line ran from Richmond to
Broad Street. (A less direct route bit I can't imagine the journey
time was much different.)

The line may have remained useful for those coming off longer-distance
trains at Finsbury Park who used to use the GN&CR direct from there -
the journey would have involved taking the Vic then a change at High &
I (cross-platform interchange) then on to the GN&CR. Though one
wonders if they might have just stayed on to KX and taken the Northern
line into the City.

So it would seem that, from 1964 at least, the GN&CR (aka the Northern
City line) would mostly been a bit of interest to local passengers.
Certainly some reports suggest it was a bit of a backwater even before
it got cut back from Finsbury Park (after all, if it'd been a crucial
link it wouldn't have been evicted from FP) - it only really came into
its own from '76 onwards, fulfilling it's originally intended purpose.


Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line
was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in,
say, 1965?

The link from the NLL to the GN - the Canonbury Curve - has existed
since 1875.
See http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html

It carried a number of suburban trains from the GN down to Broad Street
via the Canonbury Curve (between Finsbury Park and Canonbury) then down
via the closed line (though shortly to be mostly reopened as part of the
ELLX) from Dalston Junction to Broad Street.

Right, i didn't realise there was a GN service to Broad Street like that.

I really don't know much about it, though I get the impression it
wasn't a significant service at all so wasn't a great option for pax
from Finsbury Park to the City. Perhaps someone else knows a bit more
about this?


What i hadn't realised is that, as John Band pointed out, there *was* a
link from the GN to the GN&CR at that time, it just wasn't the one we have
now.

Yes. What I've read suggests the setup would not have been remotely
suitable for running a proper service up to the GN though.


Some diesel trains continued on this route until the 1976 GN
electrification, from whence customers could of course use direct GN
trains that were routed through the Northern City tunnels to Moorgate (a
stone's throw from Broad Street).

Like i said!

Before the 1976 changes, there was nonetheless a single line link
between the LU depot at Drayton Park (adjacent to the station) and the
GN line at Finsbury Park, and this was used for LU rolling stock
transfers.

And the GN to Broad Street trains, right? Or am i confused again?

tom

As I mention above, there were apparently GN to Broad St trains via
the Canonbury Curve and the NLL calling at Finsbury Park but the
impression I get is that the service wasn't substantial. I'm very
willing to be corrected.

And... I've just remembered something else that's crucial to all this
talk, d'oh! Pre-'76 many of the GN suburban trains in fact went on
from Kings Cross to Moorgate via the widened lines - the southbound
trains went to the York Road platform at KX (accessed from the street
at York Way rather than the main station) before descending into the
York curve tunnel to gain access to the "widened lines" to Moorgate -
i.e. what is now the Thameslink route. Northbound they traversed the
now closed Hotel curve (in a tunnel) to come up at a suburban platform
on the western side of KX. All these platforms have disappeared now
and the tunnels are blocked off.

Forgetting this crucial fact was pretty stupid of me, as that was a
critical feature of the electrification scheme - Moorgate was still to
be a GN destination but would merely be accessed by another route (the
GN&CR rather than the widened lines).

In article om,
(Mizter T) wrote:

One thing I've never been able to locate is exactly where are the
blocked off tunnel portals north of Drayton Park are, i.e. the start
of the disused tunnels that lead up to Finsbury Park.

They should be pretty well on the platform ends at Drayton Park.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sep 22, 1:56 am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article om,

(Mizter T) wrote:
One thing I've never been able to locate is exactly where are the
blocked off tunnel portals north of Drayton Park are, i.e. the start
of the disused tunnels that lead up to Finsbury Park.

They should be pretty well on the platform ends at Drayton Park.


It's a while since I've been that way in daylight, but they were
clearly visibile as you approached Finsbury Park from Drayton Park
when the "Great Northern Electrics" started running to Finsbury Park
and beyond in the late 1970s. I don't know if more recent
developments have obscured them.

I used to go to Finsbury Park on Sundays by that route, but they only
run Mondays to Fridays now.

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

I really don't know much about it, though I get the impression it
wasn't a significant service at all so wasn't a great option for pax
from Finsbury Park to the City. Perhaps someone else knows a bit more
about this?

Before the war, something like eight trains in the morning peak from
High Barnet to Broad Street via Finsbury Park, and six from Enfield
Chase (or Gordon Hill) to Broad Street via Finsbury Park. Both services
were much more limited in the central part of the day.
--
Paul Terry

In message . com, John
B writes
I guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky)
that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster,
since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish
people rather than its design capacity of 800ish...
If my memory serves me correctly (questionable) the Northern City line
as it was known only used 4 car sets.
--
Clive.

In message om, Mizter
T writes
BBC On This Day article:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/354bb
I seem to remember that the driver was carrying a wad of cash to get a
car for his daughter later that day, hardly cause for a driver
committing suicide, however he was found with his hand still on the
deadmans and in the full power position.
--
Clive.

On Sep 22, 2:42 pm, "Clive." wrote:
In message . com, John
B writesI guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky)
that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster,
since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish
people rather than its design capacity of 800ish...

If my memory serves me correctly (questionable) the Northern City line
as it was known only used 4 car sets.


The report in the previous link implies that is was made of two three-
car sets, ie six altogether.

The story (and also some other accounts I've read) suggests that a
number of people were standing, although that could be a case of "I'll
have an uncomfortable journey to save a few yards at the terminus".

In message . com, MIG
writes
The report in the previous link implies that is was made of two three-
car sets, ie six altogether.

The story (and also some other accounts I've read) suggests that a
number of people were standing, although that could be a case of "I'll
have an uncomfortable journey to save a few yards at the terminus".
As I remember my time on the Northern Line, trains were composed of four
and three car sets, each three car set being composed of only one
driving car and a panel driven (30000unit?) Now as all the driving
cars were either "A" or "D" end and as the units were uniform it would
suggest that all the 30000 units were either "A" or "D", I suspect "A".
At that time, only "A" and "D" units could couple under normal
circumstances. This is why I suspect press reports about six car
trains. As I've said I suspect the trains were only four cars long and
this came from seeing them in 16 foot tunnels and eight car platforms,
but if you can provide me with more accurate information, I'll happily
apologise and back down.
--
Clive.