On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom Anderson
writes

"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2
tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up
north?

The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another
with-flow service.

Okay, that's what i suspected.

How much time does that save over running in service?

12.5 minutes.

[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and
assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a half-ECS
cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and a fully
in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer. Assuming that two-thirds of
the trains (4 tph of 6 tph) currently do the half-ECS cycle, then that
means going to having all trains running in service requires 10.5% more
trains. So, this pattern is a substantial economy. Will the release of
313s from the NLL be enough to cover that 10.5%? Are there other demands
on those trains too?

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, wrote:

On Oct 2, 12:15 am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get

"Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the
Moorgate line.

So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends?

IMO, FWIW, the service should run to Moorgate Mon-Sat and KX Sun. The
Barbican Centre is a potential major source of traffic in the evenings
but the last trains depart just before most performances finish!

Very true. Also, i suggest you have a wander along the eastern half of Old
Street, and environs, on a friday or saturday evening. You will find quite
a few people who will be wanting to go home after 2200. There are similar,
although less numerous, potential customers along Upper Street, near Essex
Road and Highbury & Islington stations.

There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once the
NLR shenanigans are done, he might be interested in this; if he could buy
even a half-hourly service from 2200 to 0000 or 0100 on friday and
saturday evenings, and it was publicised well (posters in the Barbican
foyers and at local tube stations, flyers in local bars and restaurants),
i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a
service would be a viable proposition even without TfL support. Suppressed
demand and all that.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC
to pay - why should they?

Because it's their customers who are making the improvement necessary!

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect
AFC to pay - why should they?-

The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already
been fixed when planning permission was granted.

But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury
Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been
spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that
would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so
that might still be available.

Also, as you quote:

At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it
proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on
weekends, then up to £2million will be made available.

It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service,
so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works.

I should drop an email to TfL or something.

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes

"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra
peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600)
are only 2 tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS
back up north?


The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide
another with-flow service.


Okay, that's what i suspected.

How much time does that save over running in service?


12.5 minutes.

[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]


Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and
assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a
half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and
a fully in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer.

But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document
was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the
trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there
may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of
these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the
mornings.)

On 2 Oct, 00:15, MIG wrote:

So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends? It was
open on Sundays from the late 1970s when it reopened after the
transfer. I am not clear on when it closed.

There are lots of things that don't make sense, but appear to be down
to 'it's always been like that'.

At KGX, Network Rail has possession of all lines from a certain time
(1am?) on Saturday night to Sunday morning - regardless of whether
there is maintenance to be done. It apparently can't be changed as
it's 'set in stone' and leads to a ridiculous situation where the ONLY
day of the week where there isn't a very late train (0136 to
Peterborough, calling at most stations en route) is the night when
there would be potentially be the highest demand. I've been on the
0036 and 0136 trains many times, and if there have been any major
events in town even during the week, I've been standing all the way
home! Clearly there's revenue to be had there, and I know FCC want to
run later trains. I presume TfL would quite like to do that too. In
fact, who wouldn't want to see later trains?

Now, maintenance does of course need to be done but much work (bar
overhead lines) should be done with partial possession. There are four
lines FFS!!! Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday
night would be to use a bus ALL the time!

Jonathan

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:31:37 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect
AFC to pay - why should they?-

The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already
been fixed when planning permission was granted.

But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury
Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been
spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that
would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so
that might still be available.

limited knowledge mode

Err no money has been spent at Highbury - at least not to my eyes and I
use the station on a weekly basis. The work at Finsbury Park was on the
station place bus station which I believe is all TfL funded as was the
traffic rerouting and traffic lights. More work is scheduled at FP to
open up some circulation space and install MIP lifts. This is being
combined with the PPP contracted works into one overall scheme. I think
ticket gates get put in as part of the scheme - it's a fair while since
I've seen the plans.

Nothing is being taken forward at Holloway Road as no scheme was found
to be feasible after a lot of planning work. The next work at HR will
be the PPP modernisation work but nothing on capacity works.

I don't think Arsenal have paid out anything of any great substance
despite the conditions that were set but I might be wrong on that.

Also, as you quote:

At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it
proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on
weekends, then up to £2million will be made available.

It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service,
so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works.

I think there is theoretically a lot of money still sloshing around
given the lack of any substantive scheme to provide enough capacity. The
big problem is that Arsenal's contribution is far too small to fully
fund the scale of works needed at LU locations given they are all
subsurface and therefore very costly. Something on the surface at
Drayton Park might well be more feasible and more affordable but perhaps
not good value for money overall given the low non football usage of the
station (linked to the poor overall service!).
--
Paul C

Tom Anderson:
"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are
only 2 tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back
up north?

Clive Feather:
The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide
another with-flow service.

How much time does that save over running in service?

12.5 minutes.
[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

What if they ran back in service, but nonstop?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto,
"The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the
planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson

"Mwmbwls" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Oct 2, 10:11 am, Dave Hillam ] wrote:
"Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the
Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be
opened
at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even
if
the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its
narrow
island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected
crowds.

Which excuse is, patently, unmitigated bollox. There's a large paved
area outside the station at street level which would be ideal for
queuing, as happens at every other station near a football/other large
capacity venue, and as used to happen at Gillespie Road.

The difference is, I think. more to do with the fact that pretty well
everywhere else it is LU who provide the staff for crowd/barrier
control, whereas this would eat into FCC's profits.

A case perhaps for transferring the route to London Overground?

And to get round the island platform overcrowding, build another platform on
the disused railway land, and depending on the level of funding available,
stick PEDs (shed loads of cash) of a sodding great advertising hoarding
(cheap version, possibly even with an element of self funding) along the
edge of the no longer required side of the island platform giving you 1 up
and 1 down platform to prevent multiple "Gooner-unders" and Robert is most
definitely your mother's brother. Then stick in a Mon - Sat service to about
00:30 - 01:00 so I can to and from the Bavarian Beerhouse the easy way and I
might even say something nice about First Crap Con occasionally!
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

In message , Kevin Ashley
writes
But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document
was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the
trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there
may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of
these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the
mornings.)

I've been on (a selection of) the contra-flow trains and they are
surprisingly empty [1] but it's certainly not convenient and definitely
frustrating.

Back in the early 90s the trains used to go out of service back at
Moorgate (now I am reminded by another poster that they run in service
back to Finsbury Park); I strongly suspect they've been tweaked to
create the maximum service possible with current stock levels.


[1] various locations on route do offer employment outside of London!
--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:53:57 -0700, jonmorris
wrote:

In
fact, who wouldn't want to see later trains?

The people who'd have to clean the puke off?

Now, maintenance does of course need to be done but much work (bar
overhead lines) should be done with partial possession. There are four
lines FFS!!! Currently the only way to run the 0136 train on Saturday
night would be to use a bus ALL the time!

Which is roughly what Silverlink do, so "can't be bothered" is
probably the explanation.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.