On Oct 2, 12:15 am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote:





On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get

Interesting suggestions.

Mostly fairly pedestrian, but LTW's job is to focus on things which can be
practically delivered.

Things which struck me:

"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2
tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up
north? How much time does that save over running in service?

"Indeed we have seen no convincing explanation of why LUL can work on the
basis of routine engineering access being provided largely at night,
whereas on four-track sections of its network Network Rail imposes
timetables which give it carte blanch Sunday access to 50% of the tracks."

That isn't quite fair - on LU, the overnight closures are supplemented by
a generous serving of weekend closures on many lines. Okay, so the tube is
being heavily renewed rather than just maintained, but still.

"We believe that the Dutch/Swiss Taktfahrplan system should be the model
to adopt, with timetables planned on the mirror-image principle so that
connections between trains are as good in one direction as they are in the
other."

The what now? There's a footnote about this earlier on that refers to
LTW's 'Requirements for Train Services - Principles', but that doesn't
make things enormously clearer to me. Probably because i'm not really
aware of these "different patterns in each direction" situations. Anyway,
sounds like a splendid plan! Treble kirsches all round!

"work should start now to arrange for the transfer and refurbishment of
Class 313 units as soon as they can be released from the London
Overground."

AAAAAARGH! 313s! 313s don't need refurbishment, they need a stake through
the transformer and burying! Still, this is the only practical option at
the moment.

"However for weekday evenings, when the Moorgate service has recently been
successfully extended to run up to 2200, the level of activity in the City
and around Old Street is such that there appears to be a strong case for a
further extension to the normal close of traffic."

Amen to that. On fridays and saturdays, they could run those trains all
night and have people on them. I've often been going home from an evening
in the City, on various weeknights, and gone to Moorgate in an attempt to
get a train straight home to Finsbury Park, and been thwarted.

"An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore of
crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenals new Emirates stadium."

Bloody right!

"The present situation is that Drayton Park station one of the closest to
the stadium is closed when most events take place."

Exactly! *******s!

"Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the
Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be opened
at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear that even if
the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed because its narrow
island platform and booking hall access could not cope with the expected
crowds. However opposite the present platform, on the down side, there is
vacant land on which an additional platform could be built."

Excellent idea, and why on earth was this not in the RUS?

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.

So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends? It was
open on Sundays from the late 1970s when it reopened after the
transfer. I am not clear on when it closed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I forget the exact dates, but it started to close on Sundays in the
early 80s and on Saturdays and late evenings in about 1986/7, at a
time when off-peak traffic was very light and there were spare paths
into Kings Cross. Nowadays, the use of KX at weekends restricts the
Sat and Sun services to 2 tph rather than 3. (A couple of years ago,
the opening hours were extended to about 2150 rather than 2030.)

IMO, FWIW, the service should run to Moorgate Mon-Sat and KX Sun. The
Barbican Centre is a potential major source of traffic in the evenings
but the last trains depart just before most performances finish!

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at
Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge
expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But
don't expect AFC to pay - why should they?

On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.


It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at
Drayton Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge
expanse of derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But
don't expect AFC to pay - why should they?-


The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already
been fixed when planning permission was granted.


http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get


An issue not covered in the RUS is that of high demand, and therefore
of crowding issues, when fixtures are held at Arsenal's new Emirates
stadium. The present situation is that Drayton Park station - one of
the closest to the stadium - is closed when most events take place.
Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the
Moorgate line. It would obviously be beneficial for the line to be
opened at these times, but First Capital Connect have made it clear
that even if the line were open they would keep Drayton Park closed
because its narrow island platform and booking hall access could not
cope with the expected crowds. However opposite the present platform,
on the down side, there is vacant land on which an additional platform
could be built. London TravelWatch considers that this should be done
as
soon as possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable
as a contribution to such a scheme. This would benefit passengers for
whom the Drayton Park route is convenient, and users of other local
stations who would experience less congestion as a result.

http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/...06/09/2622.asp
quote
£2.5 million earmarked for Drayton Park Station
Date: 08-Sep-06 by charles dean

Islington Council is to investigate how to make it easier for fans to
attend matches at Arsenal football stadium.

A feasibility study looking at major improvements to Drayton Park
Station is underway, and if the plans prove viable then £2.5million
could be spent on increasing rail capacity, so more people can travel
by train.

As part of the planning conditions for the new Emirates stadium in
Ashburton Grove, it was agreed that a feasibility study be carried out
to investigate rail capacity options for the station.

Three main areas will be looked at as part of the study:

* enhancing and improving the station and its facilities
* extending train services through Drayton Park, on the line
connecting Finsbury Park, Drayton Park and Highbury and Islington
* extending train services between Finsbury Park and Moorgate.

At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it
proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on
weekends, then up to £2million will be made available.

Cllr Terry Stacy, Executive Member for Housing and Communities, said:
"This study will look at the role Drayton Park plays on match days, as
well as supporting the regeneration of the surrounding area.

"We are delighted to be working with train company, First Capital
Connect, and the London Development Agency to examine options for
improving the station and local train services. Working together has
already paid off with improved rail services via Finsbury Park on
match days".

For further information please contact Helen Fallon, Senior Transport
Planner, on 020 7527 2785.

Ends


Notes to Editors:

The London Development Agency will fund the study, the outcome of
which is likely to be announced later this year.

unquote

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect
AFC to pay - why should they?-

The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already
been fixed when planning permission was granted.

But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury
Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been
spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that
would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so
that might still be available.

Also, as you quote:

At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it
proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on
weekends, then up to £2million will be made available.

It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service,
so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works.

I should drop an email to TfL or something.

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:31:37 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

On 2 Oct, 07:30, wrote:

"London TravelWatch considers that this should be done as soon as
possible, and we understand that S106 money may be obtainable as a
contribution to such a scheme."

S106 = Arsenal pays.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect
AFC to pay - why should they?-

The section 106 issue concerning Arsenal's contribution has already
been fixed when planning permission was granted.

But i think the money has already been spent on improvements to Finsbury
Park and Highbury & Islington. Although i don't know if all of it has been
spent - enough was agreed for improvements to Holloway Road, and that
would have been a lot, more than has been spent at FP and H&I, i think, so
that might still be available.

limited knowledge mode

Err no money has been spent at Highbury - at least not to my eyes and I
use the station on a weekly basis. The work at Finsbury Park was on the
station place bus station which I believe is all TfL funded as was the
traffic rerouting and traffic lights. More work is scheduled at FP to
open up some circulation space and install MIP lifts. This is being
combined with the PPP contracted works into one overall scheme. I think
ticket gates get put in as part of the scheme - it's a fair while since
I've seen the plans.

Nothing is being taken forward at Holloway Road as no scheme was found
to be feasible after a lot of planning work. The next work at HR will
be the PPP modernisation work but nothing on capacity works.

I don't think Arsenal have paid out anything of any great substance
despite the conditions that were set but I might be wrong on that.

Also, as you quote:

At least £500,000 will be spent on station improvements, and if it
proves viable to extend train services later in the evenings and on
weekends, then up to £2million will be made available.

It sounds like some of the money is contingent on improvements in service,
so it couldn't have been touched by the FP and H&I works.

I think there is theoretically a lot of money still sloshing around
given the lack of any substantive scheme to provide enough capacity. The
big problem is that Arsenal's contribution is far too small to fully
fund the scale of works needed at LU locations given they are all
subsurface and therefore very costly. Something on the surface at
Drayton Park might well be more feasible and more affordable but perhaps
not good value for money overall given the low non football usage of the
station (linked to the poor overall service!).
--
Paul C

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, wrote:

On Oct 2, 12:15 am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 2, 12:01 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/2940/get

"Historically this is because of the restricted operating hours of the
Moorgate line.

So what is the history of the line being closed at weekends?

IMO, FWIW, the service should run to Moorgate Mon-Sat and KX Sun. The
Barbican Centre is a potential major source of traffic in the evenings
but the last trains depart just before most performances finish!

Very true. Also, i suggest you have a wander along the eastern half of Old
Street, and environs, on a friday or saturday evening. You will find quite
a few people who will be wanting to go home after 2200. There are similar,
although less numerous, potential customers along Upper Street, near Essex
Road and Highbury & Islington stations.

There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once the
NLR shenanigans are done, he might be interested in this; if he could buy
even a half-hourly service from 2200 to 0000 or 0100 on friday and
saturday evenings, and it was publicised well (posters in the Barbican
foyers and at local tube stations, flyers in local bars and restaurants),
i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a
service would be a viable proposition even without TfL support. Suppressed
demand and all that.

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC
to pay - why should they?

Because it's their customers who are making the improvement necessary!

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

On Oct 2, 12:29 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, wrote:

It is also clearly absurd not to provide enhanced facilities at Drayton
Park for travelling supporters, especially given the huge expanse of
derelict land (the former LT depot) by the station. But don't expect AFC
to pay - why should they?

Because it's their customers who are making the improvement necessary!

tom


Sadly, being rather too cynical, I'm sure that AFC's attitude would be
that few, if any, of their fans would not travel to a home match
because Drayton Park station wasn't open. They'd simply walk from FP
instead and either blame "British Rail"/FCC or the "'Elf and Safety"
brigade for the problem. Anyway, why waste money on transport
improvements when they could waste it on ever-higher salaries for
their players and manager?

There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once
....

i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a

The cynic in me wonders what would be in it for FCC to improve the service
in this way. They already blame overcrowding on a their customers holding
flexible tickets and the same argument could be made here - they would make
little extra income from the traffic. They'd probably also leave the
stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife.

Sad they can't seem to see the bigger picture, and whilst Ken might see
beyond this and pay for the services, I bet he'd end up paying forever...

Cheers,
Dave

On Oct 4, 2:00 pm, DaveP wrote:
They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife.

3 of the 5 stations are LUL run and don't have any obvious FCC staff,
and unlike King's Cross they do have barriers. The RUS puts the cost
of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at £170,000/year, mainly
for extra staff to keep the line open. It also suggests Saturday
running might be needed to free space at KX.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

The RUS puts the cost of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at
£170,000/year, mainly for extra staff to keep the line open.

Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each
(Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so
this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales,
anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That
sounds like quite a lot, but plausible.

tom

--
Tubes are the foul subterranean entrails of the London beast, stuffed
with the day's foetid offerings. -- Tokugawa

On Oct 4, 3:43 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each
(Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so
this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales,
anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That
sounds like quite a lot, but plausible.

The RUS actually has a full analysis:

Costs (Present Value)
Investment Cost 0.0
Operating Cost 1.7
Revenue -0.3
Other Government Impacts 0.0
Total costs 1.4
Benefi ts (Present Value)
Rail users benefi ts 0.5
Non users benefi ts 0.0
Total quantifi ed benefi ts 0.5
NPV -1.0
Quantifi ed BCR 0.3

Those are £millions over 10 years for the weeknight service only. So
they reckon it'll increase revenue by about £600/week, and values the
convenience gained at £1,000/week.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London