In article , Tom
Anderson writes
"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are
only 2 tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back
up north?

The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide
another with-flow service.

How much time does that save over running in service?

12.5 minutes.

[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
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On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom Anderson
writes

"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are only 2
tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back up
north?

The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide another
with-flow service.

Okay, that's what i suspected.

How much time does that save over running in service?

12.5 minutes.

[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and
assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a half-ECS
cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and a fully
in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer. Assuming that two-thirds of
the trains (4 tph of 6 tph) currently do the half-ECS cycle, then that
means going to having all trains running in service requires 10.5% more
trains. So, this pattern is a substantial economy. Will the release of
313s from the NLL be enough to cover that 10.5%? Are there other demands
on those trains too?

tom

--
**** bitches, you know how I swang. I gets my cinna-on at the
Cinna-bon. -- K-Real

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes

"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra
peak services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600)
are only 2 tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS
back up north?


The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide
another with-flow service.


Okay, that's what i suspected.

How much time does that save over running in service?


12.5 minutes.

[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]


Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes, and
assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a
half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?) is 79.5 minutes, and
a fully in-service cycle is 92 minutes, 15.7% longer.

But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document
was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the
trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there
may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of
these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the
mornings.)

In message , Kevin Ashley
writes
But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document
was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the
trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there
may be even greater. (And now I understand why I often see one of
these units running empty on the down slow at Stevenage in the
mornings.)

I've been on (a selection of) the contra-flow trains and they are
surprisingly empty [1] but it's certainly not convenient and definitely
frustrating.

Back in the early 90s the trains used to go out of service back at
Moorgate (now I am reminded by another poster that they run in service
back to Finsbury Park); I strongly suspect they've been tweaked to
create the maximum service possible with current stock levels.


[1] various locations on route do offer employment outside of London!
--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

In article , Kevin Ashley
writes
[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

But Clive's figures only apply to Moorgate - WGC. The original document
was also talking about the Moorgate - Hertford North route, where the
trains usually start from either Stevenage or Letchworth. The saving there
may be even greater.

Moorgate to: ECS Service
WGC 33.5 46
Gordon Hill 19.5 31.5
Hertford North 34 47
Stevenage via HN 43.5 58.5
Letchworth via HN 51 69-71

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
Okay. Assuming that the run in service back down is also 46 minutes,
and assuming zero turnaround time at either end, then the length of a
half-ECS cycle (is this what they call a diagram?)

No, a diagram is the complete set of workings of a train. So, using an
old WTT that I have to hand, a typical diagram is:

5B99 03:53 Hornsey EMD - KX (ECS, divides to form 2B99 and 2B00)
2B00 05:26 KX - Hertford North
2J01 06:35 Hertford North - Moorgate
3V91 07:30 Moorgate - WGC (ECS)
2K91 08:18 WGC - Moorgate
2B03 09:12 Moorgate - Hertford North
2J05 10:33 Hertford North - Moorgate
2B08 11:32 Moorgate - Hertford North
2J09 12:33 Hertford North - Moorgate
2B12 13:32 Moorgate - Hertford North
2J13 14:33 Hertford North - Moorgate
2B16 15:32 Moorgate - Hertford North
3K54 16:34 Hertford North - Moorgate (ECS)
2V30 17:25 Moorgate - WGC
3R24 18:18 WGC - KX (ECS)
2R24 18:53 KX - Letchworth via WGC
5R24 19:49 Letchworth - Letchworth Carriage Sidings

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Tom Anderson:
"on the Moorgate Welwyn Garden City / Hertford North routes contra peak
services (i.e. northbound until 0900 and southbound after 1600) are
only 2 tph."

Christ! How the hell does that work? Do most of the trains run ECS back
up north?

Clive Feather:
The peak arrivals run ECS back up to the northern termini to provide
another with-flow service.

How much time does that save over running in service?

12.5 minutes.
[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]

What if they ran back in service, but nonstop?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto,
"The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the
planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson

In article , Mark Brader
writes
How much time does that save over running in service?
12.5 minutes.
[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]
What if they ran back in service, but nonstop?

I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak
is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three
non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On 2 Oct, 21:42, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:

I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak
is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three
non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable.

Possibly, although you could perhaps run the service like the semi-
fast Peterborough/Cambridge services in the day (xx06/xx36 from KGX),
meaning it would stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield & Welwyn
Garden City. It would then be a pretty recognisable stopping pattern.
While many of us pretty much know the stopping pattern by the train
type, time of departure or even the platform number (not an exact
science but usually good enough), I don't think many other people know
or care.

The 0944 and 1014 (the 1014 is not in the current timetable) often
use(d) a 313 to do WGC, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and
King's Cross. On the slow line it's a 75mph limit anyway, so bar the
slower acceleration the times aren't that different. The bottleneck is
beyond WGC, so on the inner-suburban lines there is a fair bit of
capacity available.

Technically, it's pretty irrelevant because;
a) During the off-peak times the trains aren't that busy anyway.
b) The timings of these additional services may be such that they're
only a few minutes apart from the current semi-fast trains (and, see
a).
c) Many 313s are unreliable enough as it is (many have door
interlocking problems) so until they're all fixed - hopefully as part
of the refresh - you won't want many more running as they'll only end
up screwing up the service completely!
d) In the long term, with new stock and many other changes as part of
the capacity study, the whole timetable is going to be torn up and
redone!

The only reason to consider some tweaks is because all of this talk is
about 7 or 8 years from now, so there could be a few improvements made
in the short term.

Jonathan

On Oct 2, 9:42 pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article , Mark Brader
writes

How much time does that save over running in service?
12.5 minutes.
[Moorgate to WGC: 46 minutes in service, 33.5 minutes ECS.]
What if they ran back in service, but nonstop?

I suspect the number of passengers wanting to go end-to-end contra-peak
is tiny compared with the confusion caused by having just two or three
non-stop services in an otherwise clockface timetable.

At any time of day, I am not really clear why anyone getting on at
Moorgate wants all stations while anyone getting on at Kings Cross
doesn't (except at the weekend).