On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Offramp wrote:

On Oct 2, 9:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Construction will start two years before the Olympics?

I can foresee that in 2011 (like the JLE in 1998/9) the papers will
start to say, 'Why isn't this thing ready? It's meant to be ready for
the 2012 Olympics!?' Then the Gov will throw squillions of pounds at it
and it'll open in May 2012.

Except the government have never said it'll be ready for the Olympics. A
lot of people seem to think that's the plan, but they're generally the
same people who think Hackney is getting a tube line, ie the uninformed.
If a hue and cry is raised, the government can quite truthfully say that
it can't be delivered before the Olympics, it never could have been, and
they never said it would be.

tom

--
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor

On Oct 3, 8:19 am, Offramp wrote:
I can foresee that in 2011 (like the JLE in 1998/9)

But the JLE was scheduled to open in 1998/9 (if not earlier) when they
started, wasn't it?

the papers will
start to say, 'Why isn't this thing ready? It's meant to be ready for
the 2012 Olympics!?'
Then the Gov will throw squillions of pounds at it and it'll open in
May 2012.

Not a chance. The bill isn't going to get passed until some time next
year. Add some time to finalise designs, award contracts and acquire
land, and it'll be 2010 before any serious work starts. Given the
order of magnitude simpler DLR Woolwich tunnel is taking 3 years from
TBM launching to opening, I don't know what useful part of Crossrail
could be built in two.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

On Oct 2, 9:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Construction will start two years before the Olympics? Well, there is
the point that the Olympics won't need TBMs, but i'm not convinced.

The Crossrail work plans (available on their website) generally have two
years of enabling works prior 6 years of main excavations, tunnelling
and then station fit out.

Aha. So they'd need 2008-2010 for preparatory works before the tunnelling
can start, which would run 2010-2016, with fit and finish done by 2017.
How big a job will the preparations be? If it's substantial, i imagine
they won't be able to get it done before the Olympics, which means you'd
actually be looking at a 2012 start and a 2021 finish. Or else both
projects paying over the odds for extra labour. Yikes.

So if the journalists ever read the info, they should be writing about
completion in 2016...

According to the Graun [1], "the earliest finishing point is 2017"!

Question: what's the start date for the works? Answer: Surprise! It's
2002:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/80256B090...256D1900534714

tom

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...182363,00.html

--
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor

On Oct 3, 2:14 pm, John B wrote:
On 3 Oct, 12:24, "tim....." wrote:

They seem to work quite nicely on the RER in paris.

which only proves that they work in Paris

no, it only proves that they seem to work in Paris ;-P

Even if they didn't use double deckers it would be nice to have wider
trains if nothing else. That way they could have 5 seats abrest wide
enough normal people instead of size zero models plus they could fit
more people on.

B2003

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, tim..... wrote:

"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 3, 10:37 am, sweek wrote:
On 3 Oct, 10:32, "tim....." wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 2, 7:22 pm, Offramp wrote:

So it looks like the crazy old Crossrail is going ahead! Coooooool!

Question is , will they do the sensible thing and build the tunnels
to UIC gauge so there is at least the possibility of running
dedicated double deck trains through them

Double deck trains don't work on frequently stopping lines with
overlapping journeys like crossrail is expected to be.

The Germans tried them in Munich as a solution to their capacity
problem and promptly took them off again as they added no extra
capacity.

True. Double decker trains are mostly a solution for trains
terminating at a big terminal, since most people will be getting off
at just one stop.

They seem to work quite nicely on the RER in paris.

which only proves that they work in Paris

I'd be interested to hear why you think London (and Munich!) is different
from Paris in this respect.

Because the RER is much more of a regional, rather than suburban, network,
where people are travelling a long way and stops in the middle of town can
be longer?

On the subject of double-decker trains in the UK, and now crossposting to
uk.railway, has anyone seriously looked at doing it for intercity trains?
The WCML is cleared to W12 or some such tall gauge, right? So could we run
double-decker trains on it as is? Does the W12 not extend into the city
terminals (freight not usually needing to go that way)? How much work
would be needed for a London - Brum - Manchester double-decker service?

tom

--
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor

On 3 Oct, 16:19, Boltar wrote:
Even if they didn't use double deckers it would be nice to have wider
trains if nothing else. That way they could have 5 seats abrest wide
enough normal people instead of size zero models plus they could fit
more people on.


Actually, I'd prefer it if they kept it at current UK gauge 2x3 but
increased the number of size zero models squished up next to me on the
seats. But that's just me.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, tim..... wrote:

"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 3, 10:37 am, sweek wrote:
On 3 Oct, 10:32, "tim....." wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 2, 7:22 pm, Offramp wrote:

So it looks like the crazy old Crossrail is going ahead! Coooooool!

Question is , will they do the sensible thing and build the tunnels
to UIC gauge so there is at least the possibility of running
dedicated double deck trains through them

Double deck trains don't work on frequently stopping lines with
overlapping journeys like crossrail is expected to be.

The Germans tried them in Munich as a solution to their capacity
problem and promptly took them off again as they added no extra
capacity.

True. Double decker trains are mostly a solution for trains terminating
at a big terminal, since most people will be getting off at just one
stop.

They seem to work quite nicely on the RER in paris.

which only proves that they work in Paris

I'd be interested to hear why you think London (and Munich!) is different
from Paris in this respect.

I suspect that it didn't work at Munich because there is a very
large change over of pax at one station: Munich Hauptbahnhof.

Crossrail will have the same profile at Liverpool Street.

tim

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, tim..... wrote:

"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 3, 10:37 am, sweek wrote:
On 3 Oct, 10:32, "tim....." wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 2, 7:22 pm, Offramp wrote:

So it looks like the crazy old Crossrail is going ahead! Coooooool!

Question is , will they do the sensible thing and build the tunnels
to UIC gauge so there is at least the possibility of running
dedicated double deck trains through them

Double deck trains don't work on frequently stopping lines with
overlapping journeys like crossrail is expected to be.

The Germans tried them in Munich as a solution to their capacity
problem and promptly took them off again as they added no extra
capacity.

True. Double decker trains are mostly a solution for trains terminating
at a big terminal, since most people will be getting off at just one
stop.

They seem to work quite nicely on the RER in paris.

which only proves that they work in Paris

I'd be interested to hear why you think London (and Munich!) is different
from Paris in this respect.

Because the RER is much more of a regional, rather than suburban, network,
where people are travelling a long way and stops in the middle of town can
be longer?

On the subject of double-decker trains in the UK, and now crossposting to
uk.railway, has anyone seriously looked at doing it for intercity trains?
The WCML is cleared to W12 or some such tall gauge, right? So could we run
double-decker trains on it as is? Does the W12 not extend into the city
terminals (freight not usually needing to go that way)? How much work
would be needed for a London - Brum - Manchester double-decker service?

tom

--
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity -- Hanlon's Razor
There is a discussion about various d/d options for UK loading gauge in this
month's Modern Railways.
Brian

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...
On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, tim..... wrote:

"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 3, 10:37 am, sweek wrote:
On 3 Oct, 10:32, "tim....." wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 2, 7:22 pm, Offramp wrote:

So it looks like the crazy old Crossrail is going ahead! Coooooool!

Question is , will they do the sensible thing and build the tunnels
to UIC gauge so there is at least the possibility of running
dedicated double deck trains through them

Double deck trains don't work on frequently stopping lines with
overlapping journeys like crossrail is expected to be.

The Germans tried them in Munich as a solution to their capacity
problem and promptly took them off again as they added no extra
capacity.

True. Double decker trains are mostly a solution for trains terminating
at a big terminal, since most people will be getting off at just one
stop.

They seem to work quite nicely on the RER in paris.

which only proves that they work in Paris

I'd be interested to hear why you think London (and Munich!) is different
from Paris in this respect.

Because the RER is much more of a regional, rather than suburban, network,
where people are travelling a long way and stops in the middle of town can
be longer?

On the subject of double-decker trains in the UK, and now crossposting to
uk.railway, has anyone seriously looked at doing it for intercity trains?
The WCML is cleared to W12 or some such tall gauge, right? So could we run
double-decker trains on it as is? Does the W12 not extend into the city
terminals (freight not usually needing to go that way)? How much work
would be needed for a London - Brum - Manchester double-decker service?


The DfT have tacked a report on the costs of gauge clearance for DD trains
onto the recent 'supporting info' section of the White Paper website.
Needless to say they don't use your example route...

Paul

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...

On the subject of double-decker trains in the UK, and now crossposting
to uk.railway, has anyone seriously looked at doing it for intercity
trains? The WCML is cleared to W12 or some such tall gauge, right? So
could we run double-decker trains on it as is? Does the W12 not extend
into the city terminals (freight not usually needing to go that way)?
How much work would be needed for a London - Brum - Manchester
double-decker service?

The DfT have tacked a report on the costs of gauge clearance for DD trains
onto the recent 'supporting info' section of the White Paper website.

Excellent tip, cheers! It be he

http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy...ovevalddtrains

Needless to say they don't use your example route...

No. For the benefit of our readers: they look at outer suburban commuter
routes like those to Brighton, Oxford and Colchester.

The conclusion is that for 23 m cars, you can use a 1+2 (!) lower deck,
and get 24% more seats. Funnily enough, if you use a higher-density
seating layout, you only get a 9% improvement, but if you use 20 m trains,
it's the other way round: low density gets a 8% improvement, high density
26%. Uh? Anyway, this is not nearly as good as the ~50% increase European
trains get, all due to the fact they they're 26 m long. Apparently, we
can't run 26 m trains.

Also, all these trains are 4320 mm tall, which is UIC GB; that's big by UK
standards, W12, i think. Certainly enough that they talk about having to
do an awful lot of civils on the lines they study.

The W12 WCML would not have so much problem with clearance, but still,
given the constraint of length on capacity, we're looking at only a 25%
increase in capacity, which is rubbish.

If it so happened that the WCML could handle longer trains, or could be
improved to do so, things might be different. But the WCML is very wiggly
in places, and it's curves that constrain train length, so i doubt this.
The ECML is less wiggly, but not currently W12, and not as important a
line within England - unless you could run trains off it and into the
Midlands, or wanted to go all the way to Scotland, it's not going to fly.

tom

--
And he talked about the future, underneath a giant sphere