"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

wrote:

For a long time there was concern about Crossrail in Tower Hamlets
because it would involve a huge amount of disruption in the borough
without adding any stations there. Now it'll have two (Whitechapel and
Isle of Dogs) I'd assumed that would quieten down.


Hang on, hang on. I've just got round to looking at a map of this. AIUI,
the route Crossrail takes from Liverpool Street is a straightish line to
Whitechapel, then under Mile End Road, then right down Stepney Green,
along Ben Jonson Road, past Mile End stadium (where i think the branch to
Canary Wharf comes off), then left and under the route of the London,
Tilbury & Southend railway, left at Bow Road to follow the loop up to
Pudding Mill Lane, and towards Stratford underneath the Great Eastern Main
Line.

Which goes nowhere at all near Victoria Park. The nearest approach is
where it joins the GEML and crosses the East Cross Route. If they're going
to be abstracting spoil from there, it's going to be via a mile-long
tunnel, when there's other industrial and railway land (that isn't going
to be absorbed by the Olympic park, AFAICT) a few hundred metres away. So
what's going on?


I wonder if people are confusing Victoria Park and Mile End Park, where I
believe there is to be a temporary spoil dump. Are the parks considered as
one by people in the area? I see there is a long access tunnel out towards
Spitalfields (Pedley St) which won't be part of the finished system, with a
conveyor alongside the railway to the said spoil dump...

Paul S

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and if any map-botherers fancy a laugh, have a look at what Google
thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church. I think i know where they got
the idea from, but i can't imagine *how*, given the dates. Or maybe they
know something about future plans for the DLR that i don't!


At least they don't have Ilford - Newbury Park on the map... But I don't
follow the logic behind the map anyway. South of Newbury Park when the
line enters the tunnel to Leytonstone the line just ends on the map. But
south of Leyton the line does not end and disappear into a tunnel but is
instead drawn as connected to the NLL tracks...

There is a similar strange Central Line connection on the other side of
London around White City where the overground Central Line tracks do not
end and disappear into a tunnel, but instead look like connected to the
West London Line. I wonder if such a connection ever existed around
there. It does look like there could have been something like that when
looking around that area on the ground but in that case it would be
buried under Westway nowadays...

....and not to mention their new location of Shoreditch station:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51....,0.014377&z=15

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Paul Scott wrote:

I wonder if people are confusing Victoria Park and Mile End Park, where I
believe there is to be a temporary spoil dump. Are the parks considered as
one by people in the area?

As Wikipedia puts it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_End_Park

"Mile End Park is a park located in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets...
It is a linear park of some 90 acres (36ha), and was created on industrial
land devastated by World War II bombing. It lies on land to the east of the
Grand Union Canal and is virtually a southern continuation of Victoria
Park."

In message , Tom
Anderson writes
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Paul G wrote:

In message ,
Richard J. writes
I still don't see why they didn't route it as a new tube line from
Paddington to Liverpool street via Charing Cross and Temple -
reusing the old Jubilee line route and Aldwych branch of the Piccadilly
where possible.
Well, for a start, the Jubilee/Piccadilly tunnels aren't big
enough! Anyway it's a bit late now to start debating the route all
over again.

Also, that route (Aldwych and Charing Cross) is currently earmarked
for an eventual DLR extension...

They also aren't big enough for that - DLR trains are taller than tube
gauge. I suppose they could build some kind of munchkin DLR stock
specifically to run on that route.

Anyway, you say 'earmarked', but who by? I've often heard this route
suggested, but only by armchair Yerkeses, and not TPTB.

I believe some legal work [1] has already been done on the subject but
there is no money available for anything more at the present time (the
potentially currently available money has been used on other projects
such as the East London Line).

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/126

[1] other work has also presumably taken place, but my sources are
limited!

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:36:09 -0700, Boltar wrote:

On Oct 6, 10:51 am, "Paul Scott" wrote:

It seems George Galloway is against it as well. What a surprise...

Well, what self respecting marxist could agree with a service that
would take all those nasty capitalists to work in canary wharf?

It is a hell of a lot of money for EVERY British tax payer to pay just
for one item which will only effect and be of help to one city in the UK

Given that London (and the City a fortiori) has been subsidising the rest
of the country through the taxes it pays for, well, as long as there have
been taxes, about bloody time.

plus the waste of at least one life during construction which will most
probably occur .

If Crossrail wasn't built, and the workers got jobs on other construction
projects, do you think fewer of them would die or be injured? Is Crossrail
magically dangerous, or do you just not care about accidents not on its
books?

Anyone know how the CTRL / St Pancras project is getting on with safety? I
cycle through the StP site every day, and am often struck by the big
notices etc reminding the workmen to stay safe. The latest wheeze is a
sign on the back of everyone's high-vis jacket saying "Am i working
safely? DON'T JUST WALK BY!", which i assume is supposed to encourage your
mates to bring you up short if you're, eg, hammering in nails with a
blasting cap.

tom

--
Hawaii may be many things, but it is not the sort of place you go to
for smart, sexy, geeky women. It's more the place for luau excess,
non-literate arts, and maritime athleticism. -- applez

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, alex_t wrote:

and towards Stratford underneath the Great Eastern Main Line.

Underneath? I thought it will *join* the Great Eastern Main Line at the
current location of Pudding Mill Lane.

You're probably right. I had this idea the portal was going to be further
east for some reason. What happens to Pudding Mill? Crossrail will
presumably have two tracks here - will the formation be widened, or will
this DLR branch be pruned? Have i asked this here before?

Oh, and if any map-botherers fancy a laugh, have a look at what Google
thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church. I think i know where they got
the idea from, but i can't imagine *how*, given the dates. Or maybe
they know something about future plans for the DLR that i don't!

Amazing, it's like 1930s all over again!

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to resurrect
that route. When the DLR branch to Stratford along the old NLL is done,
this branch will become slightly redundant (still useful for commuting
from points on it to Stratford, but not necessary for access from
Stratford to Docklands), so with half a mile of tube tunnel and recovery
of the remnants of the old railway alignment, you could join up with the
around Hackney Wick. The route from Bow Church to the Isle of Dogs is (i
think) a former railway route, so with a bit of work, you could turn the
whole thing back into an NR line, and send some or all NLL trains to
Poplar instead of Stratford. Could make it a lot more useful as a commuter
line.

tom

--
Hawaii may be many things, but it is not the sort of place you go to
for smart, sexy, geeky women. It's more the place for luau excess,
non-literate arts, and maritime athleticism. -- applez

In message , Olof Lagerkvist
writes

There is a similar strange Central Line connection on the other side of
London around White City where the overground Central Line tracks do
not end and disappear into a tunnel, but instead look like connected to
the West London Line. I wonder if such a connection ever existed around
there.

There was indeed once a connection from the Central line to the West
London line - it passed from the loop through the extensive sidings of
the West London Line just north of Uxbridge Road and was used for
primarily for moving coal wagons to the Central London Railway's power
station at Shepherds Bush, but it could also be used for occasional
stock movements on and off the Central Line.
--
Paul Terry

On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:
You're probably right. I had this idea the portal was going to be further
east for some reason. What happens to Pudding Mill?

It gets obliterated. Those nice Crossrail folks will build them a new
viaduct around the south side of the tunnel portal, and a new station.

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to resurrect
that route. When the DLR branch to Stratford along the old NLL is done,
this branch will become slightly redundant (still useful for commuting
from points on it to Stratford, but not necessary for access from
Stratford to Docklands)

Trains on the new branch will only be able to head east (ie towards
Beckton or Woolwich), the opposite way to the existing branch. And of
course both branches are already redundant if you're prepared to get
the JLE and change at Canning Town or Canary Wharf.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and if any map-botherers fancy a laugh, have a look at what Google
thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church. I think i know where they got
the idea from, but i can't imagine *how*, given the dates. Or maybe
they know something about future plans for the DLR that i don't!

At least they don't have Ilford - Newbury Park on the map... But I don't
follow the logic behind the map anyway. South of Newbury Park when the
line enters the tunnel to Leytonstone the line just ends on the map. But
south of Leyton the line does not end and disappear into a tunnel but is
instead drawn as connected to the NLL tracks...

That's not the NLL, it's the Lea Valley line. As for the map, well, the
track does go that way, it's just that it doesn't join up because it's at
the wrong altitude. Before the Central was extended to the east after WW2,
the line from Leyton onwards was an LNER line that ran into Liverpool
Street; presumably, it actually did join the Lea Valley line here.

There is a similar strange Central Line connection on the other side of
London around White City where the overground Central Line tracks do not
end and disappear into a tunnel, but instead look like connected to the
West London Line.

Oh, that is weird. It's particularly weird in that there are in fact
overground tracks east of the Wood Lane bridge, but the map chooses to
ignore them in favour of the WLL connection!

I wonder if such a connection ever existed around there.

Bingo! AIUI, this was the Ealing & Shepherd's Bush Railway - this was
built as a branch off the WLL at that point to go to the GWML (don't ask
me how that works). The Central used to terminate at a depot where White
City is now, and it was extended a little way north, via the tracks that
Google doesn't know about, to meet the E&SBR and run over it.

I should point out that this understanding is based entirely on CULG and
the caption of one of Clive's photos taken around Wood Lane, so this whole
railway could be an elaborate ruse of Clive's.

It does look like there could have been something like that when looking
around that area on the ground but in that case it would be buried under
Westway nowadays...

There was (again according to Clive) also a link from the H&C to the WLL
around here, so that trains could run from Paddington to Kensington
Olympia etc.

...and not to mention their new location of Shoreditch station:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51....,0.014377&z=15

Well remembered, Olof!

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....c929cd3c55f3cb

tom

--
Hawaii may be many things, but it is not the sort of place you go to
for smart, sexy, geeky women. It's more the place for luau excess,
non-literate arts, and maritime athleticism. -- applez

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:

You're probably right. I had this idea the portal was going to be
further east for some reason. What happens to Pudding Mill?

It gets obliterated. Those nice Crossrail folks will build them a new
viaduct around the south side of the tunnel portal, and a new station.

Ah, good. And there's room for a third track to Stratford, presumably. Or
already is one.

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to
resurrect that route. When the DLR branch to Stratford along the old
NLL is done, this branch will become slightly redundant (still useful
for commuting from points on it to Stratford, but not necessary for
access from Stratford to Docklands)

Trains on the new branch will only be able to head east (ie towards
Beckton or Woolwich), the opposite way to the existing branch.

Oh bugger. That seems somehow perverse; i suppose the point is to provide
a route from people's houses in those areas to their jobs in Stratford,
rather than to lay on yet more trains to Docklands. The DLR remains a big
huge mystery to me.

tom

--
Hawaii may be many things, but it is not the sort of place you go to
for smart, sexy, geeky women. It's more the place for luau excess,
non-literate arts, and maritime athleticism. -- applez