On 9 Oct, 16:36, Tom Anderson wrote:
Anyone know how the CTRL / St Pancras project is getting on with safety? I
cycle through the StP site every day, and am often struck by the big
notices etc reminding the workmen to stay safe. The latest wheeze is a
sign on the back of everyone's high-vis jacket saying "Am i working
safely? DON'T JUST WALK BY!", which i assume is supposed to encourage your
mates to bring you up short if you're, eg, hammering in nails with a
blasting cap.

I think it's been pretty successful overall, but marred by an incident
in 2005 where a cable-laying train in the Thames tunnel caught fire
and killed two engineers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4171516.stm

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

At least they don't have Ilford - Newbury Park on the map... But I
don't follow the logic behind the map anyway. South of Newbury Park
when the line enters the tunnel to Leytonstone the line just ends on
the map. But south of Leyton the line does not end and disappear into
a tunnel but is instead drawn as connected to the NLL tracks...


That's not the NLL, it's the Lea Valley line.


Oops, of course I should now that, I used to travel Tottenham Hale -
Stratford a lot on that line last year.

Bingo! AIUI, this was the Ealing & Shepherd's Bush Railway - this was
built as a branch off the WLL at that point to go to the GWML (don't ask
me how that works). The Central used to terminate at a depot where White
City is now, and it was extended a little way north, via the tracks that
Google doesn't know about, to meet the E&SBR and run over it.


Thanks, I did not check Clive's site.

I should point out that this understanding is based entirely on CULG and
the caption of one of Clive's photos taken around Wood Lane, so this
whole railway could be an elaborate ruse of Clive's.


CULG is usually right, I would think.

It does look like there could have been something like that when
looking around that area on the ground but in that case it would be
buried under Westway nowadays...


There was (again according to Clive) also a link from the H&C to the WLL
around here, so that trains could run from Paddington to Kensington
Olympia etc.


That is an interesting one. It is clearly visible from a train (or on
the Google satellite images) where it branched off the H&C Line. It is
not exactly that easy to point out today where it joined the WLL though,
probably all traces of that were lost when West Cross Route was built.

Someone has posted a placemark on Google Earth:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showthrea.../Number/583687

...and not to mention their new location of Shoreditch station:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51....,0.014377&z=15


Well remembered, Olof!

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....c929cd3c55f3cb


Yes, I remembered that one and amazingly the error is still there.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, alex_t wrote:
and towards Stratford underneath the Great Eastern Main Line.

Underneath? I thought it will *join* the Great Eastern Main Line at the
current location of Pudding Mill Lane.

You're probably right. I had this idea the portal was going to be further
east for some reason. What happens to Pudding Mill? Crossrail will
presumably have two tracks here - will the formation be widened, or will
this DLR branch be pruned? Have i asked this here before?

...have a look at what Google thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church
Amazing, it's like 1930s all over again!
It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to resurrect
that route.
There's a motorway on top of it.

The route from Bow Church to the Isle of Dogs is (i
think) a former railway route, so with a bit of work, you could turn the
whole thing back into an NR line, and send some or all NLL trains to
Poplar instead of Stratford.
I thought the NLL was being cannibalised - the north and west bits to
Dalston for Orbirail (including the far north bit of the ELL
extension), the middle bits from Dalston for the Chelsea-Hackney line,
and the far east bits beyond Stratford for the DLR?

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, alex_t wrote:

...have a look at what Google thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church

Amazing, it's like 1930s all over again!

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to
resurrect that route.

There's a motorway on top of it.

It's an A road, and it doesn't take up *all* the space - there are little
bits of unused land, which look big enough for tracks to me. Maybe.

Yes, i know it was built as part of the motorway box.

The route from Bow Church to the Isle of Dogs is (i think) a former
railway route, so with a bit of work, you could turn the whole thing
back into an NR line, and send some or all NLL trains to Poplar instead
of Stratford.

I thought the NLL was being cannibalised - the north and west bits to
Dalston for Orbirail (including the far north bit of the ELL extension),
the middle bits from Dalston for the Chelsea-Hackney line, and the far
east bits beyond Stratford for the DLR?

The bit beyond Stratford has indeed gone to the DLR. The NLL is itself
part of the Orbirail plan (i hate that name), rather than being a victim
of it. There was a suggestion in 1995 for a cheapo Chelney that would
assimilate the NLL to Stratford, but that never got any further than a
line on a map - and recently, the safeguarding on the 1991 route, which is
in tube all the way to Leytonstone, was renewed. If Chelsea-Hackney ever
does get built, it seems unlikely that it'll be using the NLL (although
who can say, really). Moreover, the NLL as it stands is increasingly
popular, for some reason, and i can't see it getting broken up in any way
- quite the opposite, more trains, services extended to more remote
destinations, etc.

tom

--
It is a laborious madness, and an impoverishing one, the madness of
composing vast books. -- Jorge Luis Borges

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, John B wrote:

On 9 Oct, 16:36, Tom Anderson wrote:

Anyone know how the CTRL / St Pancras project is getting on with safety

I think it's been pretty successful overall, but marred by an incident
in 2005 where a cable-laying train in the Thames tunnel caught fire
and killed two engineers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4171516.stm

That doesn't sound at all fun .

tom

--
It is a laborious madness, and an impoverishing one, the madness of
composing vast books. -- Jorge Luis Borges

On 9 Oct, 17:58, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:

(snip)

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to
resurrect that route. When the DLR branch to Stratford along the old
NLL is done, this branch will become slightly redundant (still useful
for commuting from points on it to Stratford, but not necessary for
access from Stratford to Docklands)

Trains on the new branch will only be able to head east (ie towards
Beckton or Woolwich), the opposite way to the existing branch.

Oh bugger. That seems somehow perverse; i suppose the point is to provide
a route from people's houses in those areas to their jobs in Stratford,
rather than to lay on yet more trains to Docklands. The DLR remains a big
huge mystery to me.

tom

Why is the DLR such a mystery to you? It's a local light-rail system
and a very popular one at that.

On 10 Oct, 06:03, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

(snip)

I thought the NLL was being cannibalised - the north and west bits to
Dalston for Orbirail (including the far north bit of the ELL extension),
the middle bits from Dalston for the Chelsea-Hackney line, and the far
east bits beyond Stratford for the DLR?

The bit beyond Stratford has indeed gone to the DLR. The NLL is itself
part of the Orbirail plan (i hate that name), rather than being a victim
of it. There was a suggestion in 1995 for a cheapo Chelney that would
assimilate the NLL to Stratford, but that never got any further than a
line on a map - and recently, the safeguarding on the 1991 route, which is
in tube all the way to Leytonstone, was renewed. If Chelsea-Hackney ever
does get built, it seems unlikely that it'll be using the NLL (although
who can say, really). Moreover, the NLL as it stands is increasingly
popular, for some reason, and i can't see it getting broken up in any way
- quite the opposite, more trains, services extended to more remote
destinations, etc.

tom

The NLL is popular because it takes people where they want to go, and
does it better than other means (despite the filthy nature of the
trains). I still can't quite understand you're dislike for orbital
rail routes, especially given that they are liked by large numbers of
the travelling public.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 9 Oct, 17:58, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On 9 Oct, 16:44, Tom Anderson wrote:

It got me thinking, though - maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to
resurrect that route. When the DLR branch to Stratford along the old
NLL is done, this branch will become slightly redundant (still useful
for commuting from points on it to Stratford, but not necessary for
access from Stratford to Docklands)

Trains on the new branch will only be able to head east (ie towards
Beckton or Woolwich), the opposite way to the existing branch.

Oh bugger. That seems somehow perverse; i suppose the point is to
provide a route from people's houses in those areas to their jobs in
Stratford, rather than to lay on yet more trains to Docklands. The DLR
remains a big huge mystery to me.

Why is the DLR such a mystery to you? It's a local light-rail system and
a very popular one at that.

Absolutely! But where do the people come from? Where are they going? Why
are they going there? I guess what i really don't understand is the
distribuion of people and jobs in that part of London, and which people
where have go what jobs where and that sort of thing. And how much of the
traffic is not commuting, and what it in fact is, etc.

tom

--
NO REAL THAN YOU ARE -- The Zandvoort Man

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Oct, 06:03, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

I thought the NLL was being cannibalised - the north and west bits to
Dalston for Orbirail (including the far north bit of the ELL
extension), the middle bits from Dalston for the Chelsea-Hackney line,
and the far east bits beyond Stratford for the DLR?

The bit beyond Stratford has indeed gone to the DLR. The NLL is itself
part of the Orbirail plan (i hate that name), rather than being a
victim of it. There was a suggestion in 1995 for a cheapo Chelney that
would assimilate the NLL to Stratford, but that never got any further
than a line on a map - and recently, the safeguarding on the 1991
route, which is in tube all the way to Leytonstone, was renewed. If
Chelsea-Hackney ever does get built, it seems unlikely that it'll be
using the NLL (although who can say, really). Moreover, the NLL as it
stands is increasingly popular, for some reason, and i can't see it
getting broken up in any way - quite the opposite, more trains,
services extended to more remote destinations, etc.

The NLL is popular because it takes people where they want to go,

Yes, but where are they going, and why are they going there?

and does it better than other means (despite the filthy nature of the
trains). I still can't quite understand you're dislike for orbital rail
routes, especially given that they are liked by large numbers of the
travelling public.

"People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people."

I don't dislike orbital rail routes - i even use them myself from time to
time, although of course i wear a false beard when i do so, so people
don't recognise me. My irritation stems from a preoccupation with orbital
routes that occasionally strikes some people. Yes, the NLL is busy, and
the demand would fill more and longer trains - but most of the radial
routes have vastly more demand, and are overcrowded despite having ten
times the capacity, so to talk about orbital routes as if they were the
most important thing is bonkers. Focusing attention and money on the ELL
extension, say, diverts it from problems which really are more
significant. Yes, i realise that much of the attraction of orbital routes
at the moment is the fact that they can be significantly improved for very
little money by linking things up and running more trains, but let's just
remember they're the low-hanging fruit, not the top banana.

tom

--
NO REAL THAN YOU ARE -- The Zandvoort Man

On 10 Oct, 16:53, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

Why is the DLR such a mystery to you? It's a local light-rail system and
a very popular one at that.

Absolutely! But where do the people come from? Where are they going? Why
are they going there? I guess what i really don't understand is the
distribution of people and jobs in that part of London, and which people
where have go what jobs where and that sort of thing. And how much of the
traffic is not commuting, and what it in fact is, etc.

tom


That's a fair question. One could get all Daily Mail-esque and put
forward the notion that a number of these passengers during the
daytime aren't going to or from work but are supported by the state in
some way and are spending their days doing other things.

No doubt, I think there's perhaps a grain of truth in that (esp. given
the rates of unemployment in parts of east London) - but it comes from
the slightly outdated perspective where most people worked weekdays
9-5 (or similar).

There's shift work that starts and stops at all times during the day,
people with days off, people working unpredictable hours. There's a
lot of students as well - the Uni of East London has campuses in
Stratford and by the Royal Docks (Cyprus). A friends who worked there
for a while said that many of the youngsters who enrolled did so
simply because it was something to do, and the drop-out rate was very
high.

Plus of course it's not all commuting - as you note. They're been
times when my main use of public transport is has been for any purpose
apart from getting to/from work, when I've been cycling in. Shopping,
leisure etc.

Anyway in many places in London public transport is fairly well used
throughout the day - it's not just the DLR, it's the Underground (not
just central London) and the overground (radial and orbital routes) -
so you can equally well ask what all those people are doing. They're
doing what people do in this modern age - moving around. Lots.