I did wonder what the Underground map will look like post-Crossrail -
assuming it gets incorporated. The eastern side of zone 1 is going to look
very different.

D A Stocks

Here's somebody's go at it for 2025:
http://www.campaignforcrossrail.com/...fL_trnsprt.pdf
- it looks like it's official - although it may be optimistic about a
few things... and it still includes the, now cancelled, West London
Tram

On 9 Oct, 11:27, John B wrote:
On 9 Oct, 08:24, lonelytraveller

wrote:
However, if they stay on their Thameslink train from Stevenage or
King's Lynn, they will be able to change onto Crossrail at Farringdon
and head westwards then.

After having headed eastwards about a mile further than they needed to
go.

In a similar vein, nobody ever uses the Northern Line to travel
between Euston and the City.
Yes they do. Lots of people work around Bank, Moorgate, and Old
Street. It would be more similar to say that no-one ever uses the
Northern Line to travel between Euston and Kensington, which is
generally the case.

So what? I regularly take a massive detour via Oxford Circus on a tube
journey from Warwick Avenue to Victoria. If you were doing that journey
above ground it would be an insane route to take. If you're doing the
journey by tube it would be insane to go any other way.
Ah, but that's why I think that they should route it instead via Green
Park-Charing Cross-Temple/Aldwych-Holborn; then it would be a fairly
direct route to Green Park, and 1 stop on the victoria line.

I did wonder what the Underground map will look like post-Crossrail -
assuming it gets incorporated. The eastern side of zone 1 is going to look
very different.
Messy. Crossrail parallels the central line, but doesn't stop at the
same stations, although they do share some (like Tottenham Court
Road), so it has to keep dipping down to the central line, and
returning to a parallel route.

D A Stocks

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:

On 9 Oct, 11:27, John B wrote:
On 9 Oct, 08:24, lonelytraveller

wrote:

However, if they stay on their Thameslink train from Stevenage or
King's Lynn, they will be able to change onto Crossrail at Farringdon
and head westwards then.

After having headed eastwards about a mile further than they needed to
go.

In a similar vein, nobody ever uses the Northern Line to travel
between Euston and the City.

Yes they do. Lots of people work around Bank, Moorgate, and Old
Street.

I thought John was being sarcastic.

It would be more similar to say that no-one ever uses the Northern Line
to travel between Euston and Kensington, which is generally the case.

That's not such a good analogy, because the Northern line does not go
between to Kensington. Did you mean Kennington, or am i missing your
point?

tom

--
It is a laborious madness, and an impoverishing one, the madness of
composing vast books. -- Jorge Luis Borges

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:15:24 -0700, inka kola
wrote:



I did wonder what the Underground map will look like post-Crossrail -
assuming it gets incorporated. The eastern side of zone 1 is going to look
very different.

D A Stocks

Here's somebody's go at it for 2025:
http://www.campaignforcrossrail.com/...fL_trnsprt.pdf
- it looks like it's official - although it may be optimistic about a
few things... and it still includes the, now cancelled, West London
Tram

Interestingly changing the main x-axis of the map to a non-Tube line
for the first time...

And the treatment of Crossrail to Heathrow is intriguing, considering
recent discussions on which terminals it will call at...

On Oct 9, 5:15 pm, inka kola wrote:
Here's somebody's go at it for 2025:http://www.campaignforcrossrail.com/...ve_tfL_trnsprt...
- it looks like it's official - although it may be optimistic about a
few things... and it still includes the, now cancelled, West London
Tram

Hold the presses printing that map!
Like the expansive Scottish railway expansion plans it looks like a
degree of prioritisation is going to have to be applied.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...nes/article.do

quote
Crossrail to halt new lines
Ross Lydall, City Hall Editor
09.10.07
At least three major London transport projects are likely to be put on
ice as a result of Crossrail being given the go-ahead.
Passengers also face long-term fare rises, Mayor Ken Livingstone
admitted today.
Money the Government would normally give to the capital will instead
be directed towards the £16billion high-speed line, linking Heathrow
with the City, Canary Wharf and beyond.
Projects unlikely to proceed include a spur of the East London Line to
Clapham Junction, the extension of the Croydon Tram-link to Crystal
Palace, and the proposed Docklands Light Railway route linking Barking
Riverside and Dagenham.
Another fear is that Transport for London may not receive all the
money it needs to compensate for the collapse of Tube maintenance
consortium Metronet. TfL has set aside about £1billion to keep the
Tube running while the Metronet contracts are retendered.
The Mayor said the Government was providing almost £5.5billion towards
the cost of Crossrail, which is due to be completed in 2018.
The rest is being split between the Mayor, using projected income from
premium fares, and business.
He said the scale of the financial "black hole" caused by the collapse
of Metronet would not be fully apparent until February or March.
"All our projects we wish to do up until 2010 we have the funding
for," he said. "Things we would have liked to do after 2010, most
notably the West London Tram, there is no question of being able to do
that."
By law, fares linked to travelcards have to rise by one per cent above
inflation each year. Mr Livingstone said there would not be an
immediate increase as a result of Crossrail but he could not rule this
out after 2010. He said: "I would be lying to you if I didn't think
there would be some pressure on fares."
Under the deal struck with the Government, TfL will bear the risk of
building Crossrail. Mr Livingstone said he expected to have an
"intense debate" with BAA about the possible integration of the
Heathrow Express into the line
unquote


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ars/article.do

quote
Wrangle over cash could delay Crossrail spur by three years
Joe Murphy and Jason Beattie, Evening Standard
08.10.07
A wrangle over money has hit a section of Crossrail, leading to claims
that part of the project may be delayed.
Government departments are arguing over funding for the spur to Abbey
Wood, south-east London, which will connect Woolwich, Custom House and
the Isle of Dogs to the £16 billion line.
A committee of MPs is to investigate claims that one "solution" being
considered is a three-year delay to the spur, which would mean the
South-East being cut off from Crossrail until 2020.
The threat came as ministers were warned they faced a backlash from
small firms if they were forced to pay over the odds to fund the
scheme. Members of the Crossrail Bill committee will question
officials tonight and tomorrow to discover how serious the funding
crisis is.
A committee source warned: "If they are thinking of a delay, we won't
stand for it. Members will be asking questions of Crossrail and
officials to get to the bottom of this."
Crossrail was finally given the green light on Friday by Gordon Brown
after nearly three decades of planning and is due to open in 2017.
Rumours that the Abbey Wood spur was secretly being postponed began
over the weekend, with some sources claiming the Treasury was
insisting on a delay to save money by shunting more than £1 billion
into a future spending round.
The spur is one of the most politically sensitive sections of
Crossrail because it will bring tens of thousands of jobs to poorer
areas of London. There was a battle over the Government's initial
refusal to fund a station at Woolwich, resulting in Labour MPs forcing
ministers into a hasty U-turn.
Government sources admit there has been "discussion between
departments as to who is paying" - Whitehall code for a blazing row -
but say they are confident the line will be built on time.
Chancellor Alistair Darling will unveil in tomorrow's spending review
exactly how much he expects London companies to contribute to the rail
link.
There are fears he is preparing to impose an additional tax - the so-
called supplementary business rate - of as much as 4.5 per cent .
Although businesses organisations are supportive of Crossrail, there
are fears that small firms could end up paying a disproportionate
amount.
Due to open in 2017, the line will run from Maidenhead, via Heathrow
and the City to Canary Wharf and beyond.
The complicated financial package will see central Government
contribute £5 billion, the business community £1 billion with the rest
coming from fares and the supplementary business rate, which is
expected to apply only to firms in Greater London with a rateable
value of £50,000 or more.
unquote

On 10 Oct, 06:11, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, lonelytraveller wrote:
On 9 Oct, 11:27, John B wrote:
On 9 Oct, 08:24, lonelytraveller

wrote:

However, if they stay on their Thameslink train from Stevenage or
King's Lynn, they will be able to change onto Crossrail at Farringdon
and head westwards then.

After having headed eastwards about a mile further than they needed to
go.

In a similar vein, nobody ever uses the Northern Line to travel
between Euston and the City.

Yes they do. Lots of people work around Bank, Moorgate, and Old
Street.

I thought John was being sarcastic.

It would be more similar to say that no-one ever uses the Northern Line
to travel between Euston and Kensington, which is generally the case.

That's not such a good analogy, because the Northern line does not go
between to Kensington. Did you mean Kennington, or am i missing your
point?
You are missing my point. The issue was people who would be travelling
to the west end from Stevenage/Kings Lynn; it was suggested that they
remain on Thameslink until farringdon. I disputed the wisdom of this
because it takes them further east than they would need to go. The
remark was made that this is similar to no-one using the Northern line
to travel to the City from Euston, but I disputed this, because the
City is in the same direction; I suggested that a more similar
comparison is using the Northern line to travel to Kensington -
because Kensington isn't on the northern line, and is some way west of
it - it would be obviously better to go via the Victoria line and then
change somewhere.

quote
Crossrail to halt new lines
Ross Lydall, City Hall Editor
09.10.07
At least three major London transport projects are likely to be put on
ice as a result of Crossrail being given the go-ahead.
Passengers also face long-term fare rises, Mayor Ken Livingstone
admitted today.
Money the Government would normally give to the capital will instead
be directed towards the £16billion high-speed line, linking Heathrow
with the City, Canary Wharf and beyond.
Projects unlikely to proceed include a spur of the East London Line to
Clapham Junction, the extension of the Croydon Tram-link to Crystal
Palace, and the proposed Docklands Light Railway route linking Barking
Riverside and Dagenham.
That's another reason to despise Cross Rail.

On 10 Oct, 07:40, Mwmbwls wrote:
(snip)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-details/Cross...

quote
(snip)
Under the deal struck with the Government, TfL will bear the risk of
building Crossrail. Mr Livingstone said he expected to have an
"intense debate" with BAA about the possible integration of the
Heathrow Express into the line
unquote

And so the Crossrail horse trading begins! Can't say I'm surprised
about the possibility that various other schemes might be shelved, as
money is going to be very tight. Nonetheless it'd still be a great
shame.

What would the benefits of ditching HEx be for Crossrail, apart from
increased passenger numbers - would it just be more capacity in the
Heathrow tunnels?


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-details/Wrang...

quote
(snip)
Rumours that the Abbey Wood spur was secretly being postponed began
over the weekend, with some sources claiming the Treasury was
insisting on a delay to save money by shunting more than £1 billion
into a future spending round.
The spur is one of the most politically sensitive sections of
Crossrail because it will bring tens of thousands of jobs to poorer
areas of London. There was a battle over the Government's initial
refusal to fund a station at Woolwich, resulting in Labour MPs forcing
ministers into a hasty U-turn.
(snip)


I find it incredibly unlikely that the Abbey Wood branch would be
delayed, as it is the branch that would serve Canary Wharf and the
docklands via Isle of Dogs station (and Canary Wharf Ltd has already
agreed to contribute towards Crossrail too). Unless the plan is to
stop tunnelling at Isle of Dogs and terminate and then reverse trains
there?

"Mizter T" wrote

What would the benefits of ditching HEx be for Crossrail, apart from
increased passenger numbers - would it just be more capacity in the
Heathrow tunnels?

I'd be surprised if HEx was ditched, as it will still be quite a bit quicker
from Paddington than Crossrail, but Crossrail will mean a rethink. I expect
that TfL will want to bring Heathrow via Crossrail into the Travelcard
zones, which will call into question the premium fares on HEx. I also expect
that TfL would want Crossrail to go to T5, which causes problems for serving
T4 - should HEx revert to T4, leaving its passengers to change for the much
busier T5? Or should the HEx link to T4 be abandoned? And will two platforms
at T5 suffice for HEx and Crossrail?

Peter