On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote:
Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford
Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on
Overground services out there.

but I can see that London Midland* might not
be too happy at this loss of control and possibly revenue that might
entail from accepting Oyster PAYG on their WJ to Euston fasts.

The franchise spec requires them to be accepted within Zones 1-6. It
appears to up to London Midland whether to accept them out to Watford
Junction, and there hasn't been any word from them.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 13 Oct, 12:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:

(snip)

Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete
rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches of
the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6,
because Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland
& Southern services?

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.
--
Paul C


Thanks - as you say we shall see what is to happen shortly.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:58:20 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Oct, 00:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Richard J." wrote:

Pass validity aside for the moment - won't there have to be a complete
rearrangement of zonal fares in that area, similar to the outer reaches
of
the Metropolitan's ABC&D? Presume they can't simply move zone 6, because
Watford Junction towards London will still have West Midland & Southern
services?

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Mr Thant wrote:

On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote:
Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford
Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on
Overground services out there.

That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything
shown on it as gospel.

Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London
Overground services) in zone A would make sense.


but I can see that London Midland* might not
be too happy at this loss of control and possibly revenue that might
entail from accepting Oyster PAYG on their WJ to Euston fasts.

The franchise spec requires them to be accepted within Zones 1-6. It
appears to up to London Midland whether to accept them out to Watford
Junction, and there hasn't been any word from them.

U


In that case the franchise specification for London Midland merely
appears to set in stone the existing situation - that Oyster PAYG is
accepted on fast trains between H&W and Euston (and has been since, I
think, Oyster PAYG was first introduced on LU).

I guess it does also cover the situation that should London Midland
wish to stop their trains at Queen's Park as well, then they'd also
have to accept Oyster PAYG for journeys to/from there to/from Euston
or H&W. But I don't think they'd have any desire to stop at Queen's
Park though.

I can now increasingly foresee a situation where Oyster PAYG will only
available on the London Overground stoppers from Watford Junction, and
not the London Midland fasts. We shall see what transpires.

On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.


But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

Paul S

On 13 Oct, 13:20, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Paul

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.

But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

Paul S


Yes - Oyster PAYG is indeed already available on Chiltern from
Amersham, which mirrors the situation with paper tickets where LU & NR
tickets are interavailable on this route. However Chiltern's
Marylebone ticket office is the only place where Chiltern might take
money off a passenger to add to an Oyster card for PAYG use (and I'm
not 100% certain that the Marylebone ticket office deals in Oyster
either - they could just send you across the concourse to the LU
ticket office).

To be honest I've no idea how the Oyster PAYG monies gets divided up
when it comes to Chiltern and LU. If one bears in mind that Oyster
PAYG is also valid from West/South Ruislip to Marylebone, wheras paper
tickets are not (i.e. there is no conventional interavailability of
ticketing on this route), this would suggest that Chiltern and LU have
a more complicated arrangement in place - though whether it deals with
ticketing as a whole, or just Oyster PAYG, I have no idea.

Mizter T wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:


On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote:

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford
Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on
Overground services out there.


That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything
shown on it as gospel.

Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London
Overground services) in zone A would make sense.


I came to think about an interesting phenomenon with travelcard prices
here. If WJ will join zone A, then Z1-6D travelcards would be accepted
there. Such Network Railcard discounted off-peak travelcards bought from
LUL ticket offices (or from NR ticket offices in zone A-D I think) cost
£4.80. Today a railcard discounted off-peak travelcard WJ to Z1-6 costs
£8.25. It would not surprise me if there will be some special
restrictions or something for using such cheap Z1-6D travelcards from/to WJ.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

On 13 Oct, 14:19, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Mr Thant wrote:

On 13 Oct, 11:58, Mizter T wrote:

Dare I suggest that as nothing has been heard on this front perhaps
Oyster PAYG might not be immediately extended beyond Harrow and
Wealdstone (H&W) - or if it is it won't be extended beyond Hatch End
(the last station in zone 6) - at least not yet.

The sample Overground tube map shows Carpender's Park to Watford
Junction as Zone A, and Oyster will definitely be accepted on
Overground services out there.

That was really just a promotional map, so I wouldn't take anything
shown on it as gospel.

Certainly, incorporating WJ (at least with regards to the London
Overground services) in zone A would make sense.

I came to think about an interesting phenomenon with travelcard prices
here. If WJ will join zone A, then Z1-6D travelcards would be accepted
there. Such Network Railcard discounted off-peak travelcards bought from
LUL ticket offices (or from NR ticket offices in zone A-D I think) cost
£4.80. Today a railcard discounted off-peak travelcard WJ to Z1-6 costs
£8.25. It would not surprise me if there will be some special
restrictions or something for using such cheap Z1-6D travelcards from/to WJ.


A very good point. Note however there are no NR ticket offices in
zones A-D (at least at the moment).

At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether. If that is the case then of course
it'll be interesting to see how Oyster PAYG journeys are charged to/
from/between WJ/Watford High St/ Bushey/ Carpenders Park, and whether
several journeys made to/from/between these stations would be capped.

The simplest approach might simply be to charge a flat fare (of say
£1) for all Oyster PAYG journeys on this line that start/end outside
the zones (i.e. north of Hatch End).

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:20:58 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Mizter T" wrote in message
roups.com...
On 13 Oct, 12:51, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

(snip)

Oyster PAYG will be extended to Watford Junction but there will be no
change to the zonal validity of Travelcards nor of Freedom Passes. I
know no more than this (via another group) so it is a case of wait and
see.

You would imagine the ticketing system precedent for West Midlands
purposes
is whatever method of farebox split is used to Amersham with Chiltern, so
there shouldn't need to be any need to reinvent the wheel in this case?
Obviously VWC won't take part due to their pick up & set down
restrictions...

Dunno about that Paul. AIUI the traditional arrangement between
Chiltern Railways and LU was that whoever sold the ticket kept the
cash - and as part of this deal LU provided 'free' access to their
metals. Maybe I'm very wrong on that though.

I don't know if this situation has been modified, but whatever the
idea that whoever sells the ticket keeps the cash doesn't translate at
all well to Oyster PAYG.


But isn't PAYG already available on Chiltern or LU from Amersham - maybe the
cash is divvied up at the southern end of the journey, depending on where
you enter or leave the system? Paul C has previously mentioned that there is
a different default deduction on the joint LU/NR routes - perhaps this is
part of the system?

I'm not close to the detail on all of this these days but I would guess
it works as you suggest. Where Oyster PAYG is used on a shared section
like Harrow to Chorleywood it is impossible to detect what train was
used. Therefore whatever the apportionment rules are for cash tickets
would apply to PAYG revenues. I can't see someone sitting down trying to
link the entry and exit times from card data to the most likely or
actual train departure / arrivals. Too much work for too little benefit.
Where PAYG data allows unequivocal decisions to be taken on what company
was used (as in Chiltern trains to and from Marylebone) then I would
expect the money would go the operator via the settlement process. The
only other comment to make is that all the above is fine and dandy but
who knows what impact ticketing history may have.

On the Watford Junction issue I doubt very much that London Midland will
voluntarily decide to accept PAYG to Watford Junction. However any
restriction will be extremely difficult to police given the
interavailability to Harrow and Wealdstone and the complete lack of
separation of platforms, exits and gatelines at Watford and Euston. If,
as Mr Thant says, stations north of the zone boundary are in Zone A then
the compromise is to set a fare value in that instance at a level that
London Midland can live with and which is acceptable to TfL. There will
probably be an element of "suck it and see" initially and once the usage
and revenue data stabilises then a more robust settlement position will
be put in place. The gradual moves over several years to adopt the LU
farescale on the line north of Queens Park show it can be done. The
only complication might be how NR pricing works - IIRC Harrow and
Wealdstone is a compilation point (might have the wrong term) for NR
fares and I think this is why PAYG is accepted at H&W but not LU cash
fares as that would mean using the LU fare for other pricing purposes.
The same issues might arise at Watford Junction with much bigger
implications for NR pricing.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!