On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:
At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether.

"The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing
obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the
London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and
not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to
the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail
concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford
Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that
route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction."
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...C-response.pdf

So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional
map is accurate.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:

At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether.

"The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing
obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the
London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and
not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to
the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail
concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford
Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that
route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction.
"http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises...

So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional
map is accurate.

U


Interesting, thanks for that.

I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of
the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who
may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT
Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all!

I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ
does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC
lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see
that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all
there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to
Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from
Watford to central London.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote in :
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the
services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at
Blackhorse Road!

And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL...

I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes
to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is
extended over the routes.

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax
as gloating?

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote in :
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using the
services more often and not having to queue to buy priv tickets at
Blackhorse Road!

And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL...

I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes
to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is
extended over the routes.

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax
as gloating?

I didn't and it wasn't my intention.

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

No idea.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant
wrote:



On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:

At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether.

"The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing
obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the
London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and
not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to
the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail
concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford
Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that
route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction.
"http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises...

So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional
map is accurate.

U

Interesting, thanks for that.

I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of
the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who
may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT
Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all!

I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ
does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC
lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see
that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all
there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to
Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from
Watford to central London.

It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already
seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't
forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by
London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at
Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their
trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will
accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to
Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both
franchises.

Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and
National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when
the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can
'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the
actual train taken.

I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway.
Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak
and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that
Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to
make up their revenue loss.

Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote in
:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

The rest is very welcome indeed and I'm looking forward to using
the services more often and not having to queue to buy priv
tickets at Blackhorse Road!

And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL...

I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it
comes to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass
validity is extended over the routes.

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax
as gloating?

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

Are we all invited?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On 13 Oct, 19:56, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"

wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:19:56 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote::

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:20:17 GMT, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:

And not only but also, sets a very nice precedent come the ELL...

I don't see that anyone has anything to be concerned about when it comes
to the ELLX. I think it will be automatic that staff pass validity is
extended over the routes.

Paul, you do realise that this comes over to the rest of the pax
as gloating?

I didn't and it wasn't my intention.


As one of "the rest of the pax" I'll just say that it doesn't sound
like gloating to me. I think it's fair enough that those who work for
a transport organisation to get free travel on that organisation's
services as a perk of the job, just as I'd expect someone who works
for a telecoms company to get a reduced rate subscription or someone
who works for a retailer to get discounts etc.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:18:05 GMT, Richard J.
wrote in :
Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:

Are you coming to the drinks on Thursday night?

Are we all invited?

If you read the right newsgroup...

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Andy wrote:

On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:

At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether.

"The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing
obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the
London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and
not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to
the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail
concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford
Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that
route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction.
"http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises...

So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional
map is accurate.

U

Interesting, thanks for that.

I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of
the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who
may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT
Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all!

I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ
does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC
lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see
that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all
there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to
Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from
Watford to central London.

It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already
seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't
forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by
London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at
Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their
trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will
accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to
Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both
franchises.

I did forget about the fast trains that stop at Bushey! Thanks for the
reminder. That puts Bushey in the same situation as Watford Junction
with regards to whether the London Midland fast trains will accept
Oyster PAYG then. Out of interest does Bushey have ticket gates
installed?

I never knew about the fast (Silverlink County) trains that call at
Wembley Central in the dead of night. Having just looked at Table 66
of the timetable I find that they stop at these times:

To Euston: M-F 0054, 0421; Sat 0054, 0435, 0530; Sun 0315
ex Euston: M-F 0045, 0147; Sat 0145, 0211; none on sunday
(destination being Northampton or MK Central)

How interesting, I wonder what the logic is behind these stops -
perhaps to provide a means of travel to railway staff who work at the
nearby Wembley depots?

As you say, if London Midland opts in to Oyster PAYG then Oyster
readers would have to be provided at the entrance to the mainline
platforms at Wembley Central to cater for these trains as well I guess
(unless they were somehow excepted from Oyster PAYG acceptance).

And then, as you say, there's the question of whether Southern would
accept Oyster PAYG from WJ to Wembley Central.

Indeed there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster
PAYG from Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia to
consider as well given that LO will accept it on their WLL services
from these stations.

There's also the issue of the mass confusion that'll occur at Clapham
Junction as lots of pax erroneously use Oyster PAYG to get through the
barriers when only one service from CJ will actually be accepting
Oyster PAYG (the LO service up the WLL to Willesden Jn).

One solution might be what they've done at London Bridge, where Oyster
PAYG is accepted on FCC/Thameslink only but doesn't operate the gates
- passengers have to be let through the manual side gate by staff and
touch-in/out on an Oyster reader on the platform (though the number of
pax actually using Oyster PAYG at London Bridge must be very small
given that most would use the faster Northern line to reach points
north instead).


Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and
National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when
the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can
'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the
actual train taken.

Given that, north of Queens Park, traditionally it was BR/NR that set
the fares (I think this dates from when LNWR opened the 'New Lines'
aka the 'DC lines' from Euston to Watford Junction) I don't think TfL
has any power to force acceptance of its tickets from Watford Junction
on the fast London Midland trains.

As Paul Corfield has pointed out it will be difficult to enforce a
situation where Oyster PAYG is only accepted on LO trains and not fast
London Midland trains, given that passengers for both services will
pass through exactly the same gatelines at both WJ and Euston. I guess
there could be a copycat implementation of the far less than ideal
situation I described at London Bridge, and so Oyster PAYG wouldn't
operate the gates at WJ and pax using PAYG have to pass through the
side gate and touch-in/out on a reader on the platform.


I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway.
Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak
and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that
Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to
make up their revenue loss.

The question in my mind is whether any premium demanded by London
Midland/Govia from TfL could be accommodated if TfL were to include WJ
in zone A.

It's obviously be a cleaner, simpler and far preferable situation (at
least from the point of pax) if WJ were to become part of zone A - but
perhaps the premium demanded by London Midland would make it
uneconomic for TfL to do this and absorb the financial hit rather than
passing it on to passengers who used WJ.

Another question in my mind is how many pax who currently use the Met
line from Watford into central London, because it is cheaper than
travelling via WJ - would then switch to travelling from WJ to take
advantage of the fast trains? This might lead to overcrowding on the
fast trains from WJ, something that London Midland might be wary of.
Perhaps there's not that many price conscious passengers who'd do
this, though there could be a whole load more travelling via WJ if and
when the Met line's Croxley link gets built (the link that would
divert the Met line's Watford branch directly into Watford Junction).

On Oct 14, 11:24 am, Mizter T wrote:
Andy wrote:
On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote:

It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already
seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't
forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by
London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at
Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their
trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will
accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to
Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both
franchises.

I did forget about the fast trains that stop at Bushey! Thanks for the
reminder. That puts Bushey in the same situation as Watford Junction
with regards to whether the London Midland fast trains will accept
Oyster PAYG then. Out of interest does Bushey have ticket gates
installed?

I never knew about the fast (Silverlink County) trains that call at
Wembley Central in the dead of night. Having just looked at Table 66
of the timetable I find that they stop at these times:

To Euston: M-F 0054, 0421; Sat 0054, 0435, 0530; Sun 0315
ex Euston: M-F 0045, 0147; Sat 0145, 0211; none on sunday
(destination being Northampton or MK Central)

How interesting, I wonder what the logic is behind these stops -
perhaps to provide a means of travel to railway staff who work at the
nearby Wembley depots?


I think that is probably the reason. I think they originally also
provided a later service to all the possible stations on the DC Lines.
When I've used the trains, they've also stopped at Queen's Park,
providing that the main line platforms (only two, on the slow tracks)
are not closed due to engineering work (the engineering work being the
reason that the QP stop isn't advertised and meaning that busses don't
need to be provided). This was a few years ago though.

As you say, if London Midland opts in to Oyster PAYG then Oyster
readers would have to be provided at the entrance to the mainline
platforms at Wembley Central to cater for these trains as well I guess
(unless they were somehow excepted from Oyster PAYG acceptance).


They will also need to be provided, if not already the case, as the
eastern entrance to Harrow and Wealdstone. I spent ages trying to find
the Oyster readers coming back from Harrow, only to find that they are
only on Platforms 1/2 (DC lines) and on the bridge. Pay as you go is
valid on the fast trains, but Silverlink don't make it easy to use!!

And then, as you say, there's the question of whether Southern would
accept Oyster PAYG from WJ to Wembley Central.

Indeed there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster
PAYG from Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia to
consider as well given that LO will accept it on their WLL services
from these stations.


I'd forgotten about LO taking over the majority of the trains on the
WLL line.

There's also the issue of the mass confusion that'll occur at Clapham
Junction as lots of pax erroneously use Oyster PAYG to get through the
barriers when only one service from CJ will actually be accepting
Oyster PAYG (the LO service up the WLL to Willesden Jn).

One solution might be what they've done at London Bridge, where Oyster
PAYG is accepted on FCC/Thameslink only but doesn't operate the gates
- passengers have to be let through the manual side gate by staff and
touch-in/out on an Oyster reader on the platform (though the number of
pax actually using Oyster PAYG at London Bridge must be very small
given that most would use the faster Northern line to reach points
north instead).


If this is to be the case, then why have they bothered to fit the
oyster readers to all of the gates at Watford Junction. If Govia
doesn't have to accept Oyster and if all the LO passengers have to go
via the side gate there would be little need for the automatic gates
to be covered. If it is to cover season ticket holders, then this
would imply that Watford Junction Travelcard seasons will be available
on Oyster, unlike at present.


Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and
National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when
the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can
'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the
actual train taken.

Given that, north of Queens Park, traditionally it was BR/NR that set
the fares (I think this dates from when LNWR opened the 'New Lines'
aka the 'DC lines' from Euston to Watford Junction) I don't think TfL
has any power to force acceptance of its tickets from Watford Junction
on the fast London Midland trains.


Well, at the moment, PAYG is valid on the fast trains from Euston to
Harrow, as well as the DC lines, so a precedent of sorts has been set.
Remember, Silverlink didn't have to extend PAYG even to the DC trains
south of Queens Park, but they have done so.

As Paul Corfield has pointed out it will be difficult to enforce a
situation where Oyster PAYG is only accepted on LO trains and not fast
London Midland trains, given that passengers for both services will
pass through exactly the same gatelines at both WJ and Euston. I guess
there could be a copycat implementation of the far less than ideal
situation I described at London Bridge, and so Oyster PAYG wouldn't
operate the gates at WJ and pax using PAYG have to pass through the
side gate and touch-in/out on a reader on the platform.


Personally I think that this is unworkable. There are only four gates
and a small manual one at Watford Junction. There is nearly always a
queue here of passengers with fares to pay, especially when the Abbey
flyer has just arrived.



I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway.
Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak
and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that
Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to
make up their revenue loss.

The question in my mind is whether any premium demanded by London
Midland/Govia from TfL could be accommodated if TfL were to include WJ
in zone A.


Maybe we will end up with the compromise Zone being B or C in order to
gain for cash from the passengers. Bushey maybe being in Zone A

It's obviously be a cleaner, simpler and far preferable situation (at
least from the point of pax) if WJ were to become part of zone A - but
perhaps the premium demanded by London Midland would make it
uneconomic for TfL to do this and absorb the financial hit rather than
passing it on to passengers who used WJ.

It would certainly be easier, but I wonder if the arrangement will be
more like the 'special' zone for Tramlink, with a higher fare from
boundary Zone 6 to Zone W (for Watford) than to Zone A


Another question in my mind is how many pax who currently use the Met
line from Watford into central London, because it is cheaper than
travelling via WJ - would then switch to travelling from WJ to take
advantage of the fast trains? This might lead to overcrowding on the
fast trains from WJ, something that London Midland might be wary of.
Perhaps there's not that many price conscious passengers who'd do
this, though there could be a whole load more travelling via WJ if and
when the Met line's Croxley link gets built (the link that would
divert the Met line's Watford branch directly into Watford Junction).

At the moment, I doubt that there would be many passengers switching
from the Met to the mainline. The time penalty of getting to the
Junction from the Met station would be too great. (Stations are a good
15-20 mins walk apart and parking is expensive at Watford Junction). I
doubt that many commuters use the Met station to central London,
although I don't have stats to hand. When (if) the Croxley link gets
built, the balance might, of course, change. With commuters using the
link to go via Watford Junction, rather than sitting on the Met line.